Looking Brighter at Llangollen

[AMJ]

It is likely that many railways will be doing some belt tightening during the pandemic.  There are going to be a few who will be using heritage diesels rather than forking out cash on expensive steam locomotive maintenance.  Suspect that a few of the regular steam lines will be diesel for 2021/2 but that will be far better than closure.

 

Llangollen needs the coach tours going back to the area.  Folks on the holiday packages will have already paid for the train trip so they tend to buy in the café, bar and shops.  Even at the lower group rate the railway will be getting in more funds from them than other casual visitors per capita.  How many of us think that I need to eat so I'll send a bit with them and get a snack?  Similarly when I stay in Porthmadog area I like to have a meal in Spooners knowing that puts money into FR's coffers.

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, AMJ said:

It is likely that many railways will be doing some belt tightening during the pandemic.  There are going to be a few who will be using heritage diesels rather than forking out cash on expensive steam locomotive maintenance.  Suspect that a few of the regular steam lines will be diesel for 2021/2 but that will be far better than closure.

 

Llangollen needs the coach tours going back to the area.  Folks on the holiday packages will have already paid for the train trip so they tend to buy in the café, bar and shops.  Even at the lower group rate the railway will be getting in more funds from them than other casual visitors per capita.  How many of us think that I need to eat so I'll send a bit with them and get a snack?  Similarly when I stay in Porthmadog area I like to have a meal in Spooners knowing that puts money into FR's coffers.

Catering is one area all railways MUST get right.  The Bluebell used to say, I think, that they made more profit from the Sheffield Park restaurant than all the rest of their operations combined.

 

Re: diesel substitution, not a chance if they want to stay in business.  The only railways doing that will be minor ones who cannot afford a loco hire this or next year.  Bigger railways might focus on running their smaller locos (if you can haul your train satisfactorily with a Class 3/4 loco, why pay for a Class 6/7?), but not having steam is a big loss for the family market.  Remember preserved railways are an expensive journey in £/mile, so you have to provide something the Joe Public can't get elsewhere.  If you run a DMU (god forbid, a Pacer) they will say they could get this on Northern, etc.  I remember many years ago the Gwili was without a steam loco for two full seasons; their passenger numbers almost halved and they came close to ceasing trading.

 

My biggest concern for preserved railways is how many of their volunteers return after over a year away.  So many are in vulnerable groups and are now a year older, so may decide that with the continued precautions necessary (we are likely to be dealing with Covid-19 outbreaks for some years yet), it's not for them any more.

[john new]

29 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Catering is one area all railways MUST get right.  The Bluebell used to say, I think, that they made more profit from the Sheffield Park restaurant than all the rest of their operations combined.

 

Re: diesel substitution, not a chance if they want to stay in business.  The only railways doing that will be minor ones who cannot afford a loco hire this or next year.  Bigger railways might focus on running their smaller locos (if you can haul your train satisfactorily with a Class 3/4 loco, why pay for a Class 6/7?), but not having steam is a big loss for the family market.  Remember preserved railways are an expensive journey in £/mile, so you have to provide something the Joe Public can't get elsewhere.  If you run a DMU (god forbid, a Pacer) they will say they could get this on Northern, etc.  I remember many years ago the Gwili was without a steam loco for two full seasons; their passenger numbers almost halved and they came close to ceasing trading.

 

My biggest concern for preserved railways is how many of their volunteers return after over a year away.  So many are in vulnerable groups and are now a year older, so may decide that with the continued precautions necessary (we are likely to be dealing with Covid-19 outbreaks for some years yet), it's not for them any more.

Wensleydale is going diesel for one, apart from gala events.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, john new said:

Wensleydale is going diesel for one, apart from gala events.

That'll ruin the taste, should stick to dairy based ingredients

[Tim Hall]

13 minutes ago, john new said:

Wensleydale is going diesel for one, apart from gala events.

Specifically Pacers and 1st Gen DMUs, not locomotives, apparently.

[pheaton]

4 hours ago, AMJ said:

It is likely that many railways will be doing some belt tightening during the pandemic.  There are going to be a few who will be using heritage diesels rather than forking out cash on expensive steam locomotive maintenance.  Suspect that a few of the regular steam lines will be diesel for 2021/2 but that will be far better than closure.

 

Llangollen needs the coach tours going back to the area.  Folks on the holiday packages will have already paid for the train trip so they tend to buy in the café, bar and shops.  Even at the lower group rate the railway will be getting in more funds from them than other casual visitors per capita.  How many of us think that I need to eat so I'll send a bit with them and get a snack?  Similarly when I stay in Porthmadog area I like to have a meal in Spooners knowing that puts money into FR's coffers.

depends on the hire agreement....very few railways actually own locomotives, the vast majority are owned by groups or individuals. So repairs are the responsibility of the owners, At the GWSR the only mechanical part of a steam engine covered is brakes and springs. Anything is else outside of consumables is down to the owning group to fund.

 

Diesel running isn't the answer, its Joe public that keeps the vast majority of railways going not the railway enthusiast, even though im solely interested in diesel even I can see that the GWSR wouldn't survive on diesel running.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by pheaton

[john new]

1 hour ago, john new said:

Wensleydale is going diesel for one, apart from gala events.

 

Link to the news item I had read = https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2021/03/pacers-are-key-to-wensleydale-railway-services-but-steam-locomotives-will-still-feature.html 

[PenrithBeacon]

I used to visit heritage  railways apart from steam gala weekends but never, except for one occasion, the Llangollen. This was because they didn't run enough trains to make the journey worthwhile for the lineside photographer.  The exception was an October half term when the website didn't show any trains running but I thought that must have been a mistake. Not so, there weren't any trains running but Llangollen was heaving with visitors. 

The LR could be a strange railway. 

[Zomboid]

If you've got scenery and market things accordingly then it's not impossible that running diesels could at least cover it's own costs. After all when you're sitting at the window a coach or two back from the loco then it doesn't actually make any meaningful difference to the experience what's on the front.

 

If the railways publicity has loads of pictures of the one weekend from 2017 when they hired in a kettle then they'd just be asking for disappointed passengers, but if they're marketing a scenic diesel train ride then people may well turn up for that offering.

 

Steam draws more in, for sure, but it also costs a lot more to operate, and consequently requires more carriages to be in use and so on.

[Northmoor]

19 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

If you've got scenery and market things accordingly then it's not impossible that running diesels could at least cover it's own costs. After all when you're sitting at the window a coach or two back from the loco then it doesn't actually make any meaningful difference to the experience what's on the front.

 

If the railways publicity has loads of pictures of the one weekend from 2017 when they hired in a kettle then they'd just be asking for disappointed passengers, but if they're marketing a scenic diesel train ride then people may well turn up for that offering.

 

Steam draws more in, for sure, but it also costs a lot more to operate, and consequently requires more carriages to be in use and so on.

Passengers really don't care whether the steam eneinge is an industrial tank or a main line engine - especially children, so long as the loco has a name - but they really do notice if it's a diesel and not steam.  You can't charge much of a premium for a diesel ride (so you've fewer passengers paying less each) and the infrastructure costs are the same.  This is why 70 years of attempts to maintain rural railways for tiny numbers of passengers by using railbuses didn't work, because you've only addressed the smaller element of the railway's costs.

[brianthesnail96]

Having consulted the timetable I carefully planned a visit to the GWSR a few years ago with a work colleague and her 7 year old such that we could ride on all 3 trains (steam, diesel and DMU) without having to hang around for ages at any one station. Best laid plans and all that... the DMU was allowed (bouncy seats and you can see the driver and out of the front) but we had to wait for the Hall to come back around 'cos the class 20 wasn't cutting it! 

 

So in my experience of visiting with non enthusiasts for a day out steam is definitely key. I don't think it would have made a jot of difference what the engine was so long as it was steam. 

 

I've not actually been on the Llangollen railway but we stopped at the Chainbridge Hotel at Berwyn for lunch on a classic car run- a couple of us nipped across to the little cafe on the station instead and were made very welcome, it was a fantastic part of the world to drive through and I imagine it's pretty good out of the window of a Mk1 too. Hopefully I'll be able to confirm this at some point...

Edited March 4, 2021 by brianthesnail96

[MatthewCarty]

To correct some of what has been stated, Llangollen only runs a one train service for most of the year with two trains used at weekends during May, June, July and August.

Midweek it has usually been DMU during any February, March, April and October running and steam during the summer months (school holidays have usually been steam midweek too). Weekends always have at least one steam (two in August) but the second train is diesel/DMU during May/June/July. There are often small tweaks each year but this is the base pattern which can be recognized in all recent timetables (Events often deviate from this pattern). Interestingly the 2021 timetable has possibly the biggest move away from this setup for some time with diesel/DMU Fridays for most of the year and no service on Mondays.

 

These talks of needing "five working biggish engines" are a thing of the past for a railway operating one steam for most of the year. Three is probably what is needed with a fourth probably an unaffordable luxury these days (engines which sit around don't have the money to pay for overhauls).

 

On the subject of choice of motive power, last August the railway ran DMU on Monday and Tuesday, diesel hauled Wednesday, steam Thursday and Friday and steam + diesel/DMU at the weekend. The steam services were very full throughout August and full the first couple of weeks (clearly train capacity was lower than normal with compartment stock mainly in use). However the DMU/diesel services were fairly empty midweek and the weekend diesel/DMU services were cancelled after the first weekend because they were almost operating ECS.

 

After the first couple of weeks of August's services had been looked at it was decided September would be 100% steam. Whilst the previous board clearly struggled to get some major decisions right, I cannot imagine they took this decision if the numbers in front of them didn't tell them that this was going to bring in the most money.

[Zomboid]

I'm not at all surprised that when a choice is on offer, the general public will go with steam. And in an environment where there's lots of competition down the road that is operating (narrow gauge) steam then it's only going one way.

 

But in other environments diesel can work. Most scenic train rides in America are diesel hauled and appear to do ok, and I'm not aware of much steam action up on the Keith & Dufftown. But then the highlands are a huge area that's not exactly a hotbed of heritage railways. Keith is far enough from Brechin and Aviemore that they're not really in competition in the same way that the Llangollen is with the various narrow gauge railways.

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

I'm not at all surprised that when a choice is on offer, the general public will go with steam. And in an environment where there's lots of competition down the road that is operating (narrow gauge) steam then it's only going one way.

 

But in other environments diesel can work. Most scenic train rides in America are diesel hauled and appear to do ok, and I'm not aware of much steam action up on the Keith & Dufftown. But then the highlands are a huge area that's not exactly a hotbed of heritage railways. Keith is far enough from Brechin and Aviemore that they're not really in competition in the same way that the Llangollen is with the various narrow gauge railways.

No disrespect to the Keith & Dufftown (in fact an old friend of mine has been involved with it for years) but I suspect their annual passenger figures would be dwarfed by the Llangollen.  The Highlands is a popular tourist area and exceptionally scenic but the numbers of tourists in even the popular towns in high summer is nothing like the Amblesides or Porthmadogs further South.  It's harder to get to the Highlands easily from the most populous areas of Britain; you can have tea in Snowdonia and be home in Manchester well before bedtime.

What you say about US scenic railroads is very true but like I said earlier, going from somewhere to somewhere through somewhere is important.  These railroads often follow routes which cannot be accessed by road and are much, much longer than we typically have in the UK (the Grand Canyon railroad which mostly parallels the only road to South Rim, is about 30 miles and it's probably one of the shorter lines).  Our nearest equivalent in the UK is probably the NYMR, although it's "only" 18 miles.

[Zomboid]

1 minute ago, Northmoor said:

No disrespect to the Keith & Dufftown (in fact an old friend of mine has been involved with it for years) but I suspect their annual passenger figures would be dwarfed by the Llangollen

Well their usual train seems to be a 2 car DMU, so it ought to be dwarfed by most other lines. But they seem to be getting by on that. I've never been, but the impression I have is that it's more of a scenic train ride than a heritage experience.

[Reorte]

12 hours ago, Northmoor said:

No disrespect to the Keith & Dufftown (in fact an old friend of mine has been involved with it for years) but I suspect their annual passenger figures would be dwarfed by the Llangollen.  The Highlands is a popular tourist area and exceptionally scenic but the numbers of tourists in even the popular towns in high summer is nothing like the Amblesides or Porthmadogs further South.  It's harder to get to the Highlands easily from the most populous areas of Britain; you can have tea in Snowdonia and be home in Manchester well before bedtime.

What you say about US scenic railroads is very true but like I said earlier, going from somewhere to somewhere through somewhere is important.  These railroads often follow routes which cannot be accessed by road and are much, much longer than we typically have in the UK (the Grand Canyon railroad which mostly parallels the only road to South Rim, is about 30 miles and it's probably one of the shorter lines).  Our nearest equivalent in the UK is probably the NYMR, although it's "only" 18 miles.

Sounds like the closest Highland equivalent is probably the Jacobite then, although that's obviously a somewhat different case to a heritage railway. When I've been on it or just in the area when it's been there it's always seemed packed, and that's running what I assume is the longest train they possibly could.

[Oldddudders]

On 04/03/2021 at 11:43, AMJ said:

How many of us think that I need to eat so I'll spend a bit with them and get a snack?  

When living in Cranbrook, if I went the few miles across to Tenterden on a Sunday morning, just the atmosphere of the station and its cafe was enough to be very rewarding, so a coffee and a cake went down well. A busy-enough service to be interesting, but the relaxed atmosphere of a rural railway. The right blend. 

[RichardT]

On 04/03/2021 at 16:08, PenrithBeacon said:

This was because they didn't run enough trains to make the journey worthwhile for the lineside photographer

But lineside photographers also don’t pay the bills (unless they stump up for special photographic events) so running a service for them isn’t a priority.

 

On another point mentioned, both the Wensleydale & Weardale railways are now quite clear in their publicity that the services are a long scenic train ride in 1950s units that give a good view, and that suits their market. Although changes may be afoot on the Weardale... https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19135950.ambitious-plan-weardale-railway-gets-backing-four-tory-mps/

 

Richard

[PenrithBeacon]

I always, absolutely always, paid for a ticket to ride every time I visited a railway even though I didn't use it. Unless I was a member that is. The LR just didn't run enough trains to make it worthwhile visiting. 

I notice above that dmus are being run at present. Provided you are behind the driver (and he doesn't have the blind down) this is a wonderful way of seeing the Dee Valley. 

[RichardT]

42 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

 

I always, absolutely always, paid for a ticket to ride every time I visited a railway even though I didn't use it. Unless I was a member that is. The LR just didn't run enough trains to make it worthwhile visiting. 

 

 

In which case sir, you are a gentleman & a scholar and my comment unfairly misjudged you by association.

 

I wish more photographers had your attitude.

 

Richard T

Edited March 5, 2021 by RichardT
Clarify

[RJS1977]

On 04/03/2021 at 14:03, Northmoor said:

My biggest concern for preserved railways is how many of their volunteers return after over a year away.  So many are in vulnerable groups and are now a year older, so may decide that with the continued precautions necessary (we are likely to be dealing with Covid-19 outbreaks for some years yet), it's not for them any more.

 

I can only speak for the line I volunteer on, but last summer (when we didn't run owing to the canopy work), our Saturday work days were breaking records for the number of volunteers on site. Though that was probably at least in part because nobody had anything else to do, I see no reason for it to suggest that we may be short of volunteers when we do reopen, although of course some may choose to stay away in the short term when visitors are present.

[adb968008]

To me catering is king.

 

Provide a decent bar, pub, restaurant in a good surrounding, you change the dynamic from a “train ride” to a “day out”.

my favourites by far are Sheffield Park, Kidderminster and Didcot. My little one is mad about trains, but needs feeding. After lunch we never leave straight away, and explore more, invariably via the shop.

As tourists they have 4 basic needs, in this order..

 

1. Entertainment

2. Toilets

3. Feeding

4. Shopping

Without an attractive point 3.. the visit ends.

The more ambient the catering, the more likely they are to stay.. a bacon butty in a brown bag isn't the same as a sit down lunch in a converted goods warehouse.

 

ask yourself..

 

How many times have you been to a tourist attraction, of any type, then left to go for lunch ?

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by adb968008

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

In which case sir, you are a gentleman & a scholar and my comment unfairly misjudged you by association.

 

I wish more photographers had your attitude.

 

Richard T

Many did, spoilt by those who didn't and, in truth, the aggressive posture of too many volunteers who had an attitude of entitlement to say whatever they thought appropriate to photographers. I hardly ever go to a steam railway now, just no pleasure in it.

To be sure though, this attitude was never seen at the LR.

Edited March 5, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[Northmoor]

27 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Many did, spoilt by those who didn't and, in truth, the aggressive posture of too many volunteers who had an attitude of entitlement to say whatever they thought appropriate to photographers. I hardly ever go to a steam railway now, just no pleasure in it.

To be sure though, this attitude was never seen at the LR.

I commend you for your honesty and generosity Sir.  I have heard of enthusiasts who wanted to photograph locos on shed at Isfield (Lavender Line); when spotted trespassing in the adjacent farmer's field, they were asked if they wanted to come in and visit the shed for a small donation at the cafe.  They scoffed and left (after admitting they had come from Leeds that day).

 

Whenever we were preparing the AC Electrics for special event weekends at Barrow Hill, it was remarkable the number of enthusiasts who "just happened to be passing" on the Friday afternoon, when entry to the site was free....

Edited March 5, 2021 by Northmoor

[adb968008]

I don't think a railway needs to be exclusively steam.

ELR has had a regular diesel diagram since day 1.

indeed in the early days, the 3 morning turns were all diesel, so the steam crowd didn't have to get out of bed too early.

 

I think having a mixed diagram works well, as long as part of a day out has steam, and chance for pictures I don't think most really care.

 

Don’t think its ever really hurt them.

 

The most disappointing trip I ever did was the Scary covid service  last summer.. on one line that I will leave nameless, you werent allowed to wait on the station, the locos hidden from view at runround, purposely to prevent picture taking, you were held off platform, railroaded to your seat, and directed immediately off premise at the other end... everyone was acting terrified.. Although on an ordinary day it was an exceptionally good railway, on this occasion it scared the customers, everyone was more than willing to exit without delay!

 

To me ambiance is the day out, its about appearance, it is much more important than if it has a chimney or an exhaust, having a choice on a day out is just as good as having an exclusive steam service...indeed it encourages passengers to deboard, hang around for a while.

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by adb968008