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Looking Brighter at Llangollen


steve W
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1 hour ago, Derekstuart said:

Could I respectfully suggest that those who do not know what is happening try and avoid speculation?

 

That the operating company and the asset owning trust are separate entities is all people need to know for now. I wouldn't go writing this railway off just yet.

 

 

 

I haven't seen any speculation. Nothing going overboard anyway, look at the unofficial FB page for that. Posts on there suggesting it's going to be converted into a road totally ignoring the fact it's right next to one. :laugh:

 

Worth bearing in mind some on here do know about the railway and aren't just guessing. Some of us have seen this coming for years. When the crown jewels are leaving, even temporarily then something is wrong.

 

 

The debt is less than a small semi and could be written off in days just by the membership. If it came down to it I could see the local council and/or WAG being involved. I doubt they would want to lose one of their biggest tourist attractions in a pretty deprived area.

 

The amount we are talking is about what you get in an appeal after a spate of vandalism.

 

But we need to see that the right people are in charge and they are going in the right direction. Which is where the Receivers come in. That's their job.

 

It's a case of "nothing to see here". It'll be alright.

 

 

 

Jason

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10 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I haven't seen any speculation. Nothing going overboard anyway, look at the unofficial FB page for that. Posts on there suggesting it's going to be converted into a road totally ignoring the fact it's right next to one. :laugh:

 

Worth bearing in mind some on here do know about the railway and aren't just guessing. Some of us have seen this coming for years. When the crown jewels are leaving, even temporarily then something is wrong.

 

 

The debt is less than a small semi and could be written off in days just by the membership. If it came down to it I could see the local council and/or WAG being involved. I doubt they would want to lose one of their biggest tourist attractions in a pretty deprived area.

 

The amount we are talking is about what you get in an appeal after a spate of vandalism.

 

But we need to see that the right people are in charge and they are going in the right direction. Which is where the Receivers come in. That's their job.

 

It's a case of "nothing to see here". It'll be alright.

 

 

 

Jason

Hello Jason. There's speculation on page 1.

 

10 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Worth bearing in mind some on here do know about the railway and aren't just guessing. Some of us have seen this coming for years. When the crown jewels are leaving, even temporarily then something is wrong.

With all respect, I am always sceptical of situations that 'people have seen this coming for years'. It's very easy to retrospectively claim to have foreseen anything. Of course if people know, rather than guess, then that's a different matter. However, I suspect those who do know, will be keeping quiet for the moment.

 

10 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

The debt is less than a small semi and could be written off in days just by the membership. If it came down to it I could see the local council and/or WAG being involved. I doubt they would want to lose one of their biggest tourist attractions in a pretty deprived area.

 

The amount we are talking is about what you get in an appeal after a spate of vandalism.

If that is so, then how is it currently in such a financially poor condition? It seems previous appeals for funds have really struggled.

 

10 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

But we need to see that the right people are in charge and they are going in the right direction. Which is where the Receivers come in. That's their job.

 

It's a case of "nothing to see here". It'll be alright.

If this is receivership rather than administration, it offers more questions than it does answers. But I won't engage in speculation.

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1 hour ago, Derekstuart said:

 

With all respect, I am always sceptical of situations that 'people have seen this coming for years'. 

 

If that is so, then how is it currently in such a financially poor condition? It seems previous appeals for funds have really struggled.

 

 

It has been 'coming for years' as the Railway's own website admits - see my post above which quotes substantial losses from the engineering side for at least the last three years. The appeals for funds have been for the operating side of the railway and not to support what seems to have been a failed business doing engineering work for others.

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Just now, Mike Bellamy said:

 

It has been 'coming for years' as the Railway's own website admits - see my post above which quotes substantial losses from the engineering side for at least the last three years. The appeals for funds have been for the operating side of the railway and not to support what seems to have been a failed business doing engineering work for others.

When will I ever learn about posting on RMW? It was a reasonable suggestion for people not to post speculation. Nothing more.

 

I have seen your post, thank you. It tells us nothing new.

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1 hour ago, Derekstuart said:

Hello Jason. There's speculation on page 1.

 

With all respect, I am always sceptical of situations that 'people have seen this coming for years'. It's very easy to retrospectively claim to have foreseen anything. Of course if people know, rather than guess, then that's a different matter. However, I suspect those who do know, will be keeping quiet for the moment.

 

If that is so, then how is it currently in such a financially poor condition? It seems previous appeals for funds have really struggled.

 

If this is receivership rather than administration, it offers more questions than it does answers. But I won't engage in speculation.

 

Some of us know things that aren't in the public domain. None of my comments are guesswork.

 

 

I would dispute the idea that fundraising has been unsuccessful. Have you looked at Corwen? The brand new station. That was done by the Trust.

 

https://www.llangollen-railway.co.uk/corwen-development/

 

They've also just raised over £30,000 for repairs to Dee Bridge/Berwyn Tunnel.

 

Finally Our Dee Bridge/ Berwyn Tunnel Appeal has raised over £30,000 which is fantastic and gratifying achievement which will allow us to get the necessary repairs done once we are out of Lockdown and will also provide us with over £10,000 surplus to put in a Track Maintenance Fund for future track repairs.

 

https://www.llangollen-railway.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/CCNL-February-2021_compressed.pdf

 

Also just completed the overhaul of 7754.

 

 

Even on the website the quoted figure is £350,000. As I pointed out that's chickenfeed. Do people really think a heritage railway is going under for that sort of money? Especially when you can attract money.

 

Yep. Some of us don't know anything about the railway....

 

 

Jason

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1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Some of us know things that aren't in the public domain. None of my comments are guesswork.

 

 

I would dispute the idea that fundraising has been unsuccessful. Have you looked at Corwen? The brand new station. That was done by the Trust.

 

https://www.llangollen-railway.co.uk/corwen-development/

 

They've also just raised over £30,000 for repairs to Dee Bridge/Berwyn Tunnel.

 

Finally Our Dee Bridge/ Berwyn Tunnel Appeal has raised over £30,000 which is fantastic and gratifying achievement which will allow us to get the necessary repairs done once we are out of Lockdown and will also provide us with over £10,000 surplus to put in a Track Maintenance Fund for future track repairs.

 

https://www.llangollen-railway.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/CCNL-February-2021_compressed.pdf

 

Also just completed the overhaul of 7754.

 

 

Even on the website the quoted figure is £350,000. As I pointed out that's chickenfeed. Do people really think a heritage railway is going under for that sort of money? Especially when you can attract money.

 

Yep. Some of us don't know anything about the railway....

 

 

Jason

Jason,

If you 'know' then make a formal statement, or stop vague statements- they help nobody.

Raising £30K is very good and I commend them for that- but that's not even 10% of what they need to find here.

If you actually bothered to read my post, I quite clearly stated that I wouldn't write them off just yet.

What you know, what you don't know and what you don't know but think you know, I neither know nor care. I made a very reasonable suggestion to not engage in speculation. Unless you are so authorised to speak on behalf of either the trust or the company, then anything you write is mere speculation, regardless of what you think you know and whether you're even right or wrong.

I won't engage further with you as this is contrary to what I myself suggested. Leave it to the professionals who understand insolvency proceedings.

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12 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

Could I respectfully suggest that those who do not know what is happening try and avoid speculation?

 

That the operating company and the asset owning trust are separate entities is all people need to know for now. I wouldn't go writing this railway off just yet.

 

 

 

I don't think anybody is writing it off. My understanding is that the railway is 'safe' and that services are expected to resume shortly. Nevertheless it is clear that it was the engineering business which sunk the PLC. The accounts for the past several years show two things: that the works made a loss which grew year on year, and that year on year it took on more staff and more jobs in a failed bid to dig itself out of the hole.

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10 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

It was a reasonable suggestion for people not to post speculation. Nothing more.

 

I have seen your post, thank you. It tells us nothing new.

 

. . . . .but it wasn't speculation - direct quote from the Railway's own website and a link to a very long and comprehensive report from the Patriot Group about the numerous problems they found - have you looked at that report and seen the photos - for example when was it good engineering practice to use an oversize nut as a spacer at the bolt was too long !!

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Nothing to say other than I hope it comes out of the other side of this. I've been a couple of times and enjoyed it - always like a pleasant railway in pleasant surroundings.

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2 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

I don't think anybody is writing it off. My understanding is that the railway is 'safe' and that services are expected to resume shortly. Nevertheless it is clear that it was the engineering business which sunk the PLC. The accounts for the past several years show two things: that the works made a loss which grew year on year, and that year on year it took on more staff and more jobs in a failed bid to dig itself out of the hole.

I assume the person who managed the engineering business has been fired?

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7 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Nothing to say other than I hope it comes out of the other side of this. I've been a couple of times and enjoyed it - always like a pleasant railway in pleasant surroundings.

I haven't been, but numerous pics show a pretty secondary railway in lovely countryside, which is what I would be most likely to enjoy in the heritage sector. No business is 'too nice to fail' but this one would certainly be a loss on many fronts. Maybe their engineering prowess needs to be either restricted to in-house, or radically restructured if on a commercially-viable basis. New faces at the helm of that, with appropriate engineering CVs, would seem a minimum. 

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13 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

The link to the railway's own website in the first posting gives the reasons for the financial difficulties.

 

 

LMS Patriot Project was just one of the locos they were working on. It is reported that parts were lost and needed to be replaced or were not manufactured to the correct specification. A detailed report is in the link below - note the date December 2018 and so long before the effects of Covid.

 

https://www.lms-patriot.org.uk/engineering/2018-12-20/engineering-date-december-2018

.

The Patriot Group report is not good reading.

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26 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

No business is 'too nice to fail' but this one would certainly be a loss on many fronts.

The business could fail for any number of reasons, but a pretty train ride in a major tourist area that goes from one place where there's stuff to do to another (I've never been, but I assume that Llangollen and Corwen both have something to do to occupy a couple of hours) as a concept should be viable, so I have no doubt that there will continue to be a Llangollen Railway.

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1 minute ago, Zomboid said:

The business could fail for any number of reasons, but a pretty train ride in a major tourist area that goes from one place where there's stuff to do to another (I've never been, but I assume that Llangollen and Corwen both have something to do to occupy a couple of hours) as a concept should be viable, so I have no doubt that there will continue to be a Llangollen Railway.

Plenty at Llangollen, less at Corwen IIRC but you can go for a pleasant walk and have a bite to eat before getting the train back. Berwyn's a nice stop on the way too, and not too far back to Llangollen to walk back along the canal.

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7 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Plenty at Llangollen, less at Corwen IIRC but you can go for a pleasant walk and have a bite to eat before getting the train back. Berwyn's a nice stop on the way too, and not too far back to Llangollen to walk back along the canal.

Sounds like a nice day out. If we're ever allowed out again I might suggest it when we're staying with the in-laws in North Wales.

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Very sad news. I wish everyone involved in the Llangollen Railway all the best and hope that the railway will bounce back from this low point to a profitable future. All lines need to make money to be able to exist and with the right management I am sure the Llangollen will in the future. Good fortune to all concerned. 

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57 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Sounds like a nice day out. If we're ever allowed out again I might suggest it when we're staying with the in-laws in North Wales.

I had a nice weekend there a couple of years ago, stayed in Llangollen at one of the hotels and there is plenty of places to eat.

 

Spent some time on the railway as well as a trip on the canal to the aquaduct (and over it) there is also a NT place on the outskirts which is worth a visit, and had a pleasant evening walk to the horseshoe falls.

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3 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

. . . . .but it wasn't speculation - direct quote from the Railway's own website and a link to a very long and comprehensive report from the Patriot Group about the numerous problems they found - have you looked at that report and seen the photos - for example when was it good engineering practice to use an oversize nut as a spacer at the bolt was too long !!

 

Mike, if you go back to the beginning of this thread you will see people engaging in speculation. I suggested they stop. Was I somehow acting unreasonably in doing so?

 

Yes, I have read the reports. I do not personally see anything wrong with discussing those reports- provided people keep to facts. Others have hinted at some sort of special knowledge of what is going on behind the scenes (although I suspect this is something that could be bagged and put on the roses). In fact, you make a good point- look at the report. Only official statements by those involved should be considered as facts.

 

I am not sure why you're telling me about their engineering practices; as I have written several times now, all I was suggesting is that people stop speculating.

 

Last point: When was the last time speculation of any real World event by members of a hobby forum ever actually did any good? No, me neither. But I can think of when they've done harm.

Anyway, I'm putting this topic on ignore now. I don't want to get involved. Consider me to be the horrible ogre if you want. Mind you, I suppose whilst people are speculating here it means they aren't speculating/ moaning about what Bachmann will be doing in 2031...

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@Derekstuart, you're probably best to ignore the topic, it's clearly riled you and you're swimming against a tide, typically it is the mods that people will adhere to, not requests from other forum members.

 

If you identify anything that isn't factual and you feel likely to do harm then the best route is via the moderators who can take an impartial view and act accordingly.

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Having taken 20 minutes out of my day to satisfy my curiosity rather than speculate, I visited the Companies House website. Basically the engineering side has been a financial problem; passenger revenue is down (and has been non-existent for the last year); the Llangollen Railway Trust Ltd owns about 23% of the shares and is the major shareholder; the charges against the assets are with the Natwest Bank.

 

Link here to companies House: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02716476/filing-history

 

As I suspected there's other associated companies, nothing wrong with that. I'd suggest the mistake they made was not having the engineering company as a separate company so any problems there would lessen the risk to the main operating company or the Trust.

 

According to CH, new  directors have recently been appointed, maybe as trouble shooters or receivers.

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When it is all back up and running - and I trust it will - a better place to park the car is at Carrog - and then get the train into Llangollen.  Unlike Llangollen there is plenty of parking at Carrog, and a station cafe for a cup of tea and a bun. 

 

I agree that Corwen, sadly, has little to offer, and I suspect the anticipation of the arrival of the railway again (after the 1960's closure)  was a bit of optimism for the shopkeepers of Corwen and income for the town.   

 

Hopefully it will all be resolved in due course for all concerned. [Alisdair]

 

 

 

 

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I think its more of a case of what railway forms after the dust has settled not if.

 

The track bed is leased long term from the council, the railway is a major tourism attraction for the area contributing greatly to the local economy. So they are not going to rip it up, or convert it to a cycle way...or whatever else is being bounded around...not if it doesn't cost them anything to leave it in situ even in a worst case scenario....

 

I do disagree im afraid with the notion that 300 odd grand is small change....thats simply not the case when you owe it to the bank, and they have called in the receivers.

 

Llangollen is a victim of an almost perfect storm, their accounting practices are not unlike the majority of the railways in the uk, they have however financed using a loan whereas for most railways thats a lender of last resort, hence why every 5 mins you see an appeal in your favourite rail magazine.

 

But we are in a pandemic...people are losing there jobs...people are concentrating on other things...people are squirrelling money away for their own things...in essence they are not really giving it to railways and there's almost an appeal fatigue....

 

and even the railways that are issuing successful appeals have to time it very well....you cant have an appeal one minute and then issue another one the next....

 

from what I have seen with the accounts and from my close association of the owners of 26010 and the 47 at Llangollen had covid 19 not gone on so long then following a couple of bad years the return to profitability would have been fairly swift with the closure of the engineering works.

 

They are not alone in this front....SVR, GWSR, WSR have all been bought to their knees through environmental events, and financing issues. The difference being most of them were short lived events so the railways in question adapt and survive...covid robs you of that chance!

 

To be frank...yes things will get sold but you will see a railway not too unlike the one you see now operating again in the future I expect.

 

 

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