Modelling the New North Main Line (Acton - Northolt) c. 1990

[the_orf84]

Hello everyone and it's great to finally be on RMWeb, thanks to Andy York for technical assistance.

Although now based in Weymouth, I grew up in Greenford in the era described above and, like so many others, it seems, have finally decided to itch that scratch during lockdown and have started building a 00 gauge layout.  I am happy with my progress so far.  The layout is about 9' x 7'6" and I have managed to do a fair bit with it, mainly through reading comments on forums, using magazines and also video guides on YouTube.  The layout won't be big and my skills and knowledge levels are not yet high enough for me to really get to grips with a prototype, but I am already looking to expand what I can do, as one thing I have picked up from years around the hobby (and somewhat in it) is that people continually expand and rebuild layouts.  

With that in mind, I am trying to get a solid basis for prototype research on this area; however, the NNML is a notoriously vacant hole in many pictorial and anecdotal records.  I will start with what I HAVE got so far (big shout-out to Keith Jarrett from rail-books.co.uk for his help):

• Some excellent videos on YouTube of the wider area (Acton Main Line, Kensington Olympia)
• Several interesting pictures of stations on the line using images from Flickr
• Copies of M. Rhodes & P. Shannon's 1990 Freight Only Yearbook and Freightfax 
• S. Jenkins The Great Western and Great Central Joint Railway (Oakwood, Tarrant Hinton, 1978)
• V. Mitchell and K. Smith's Paddington to Princes Risborough (Middleton Press, Midhurst, 2002)

 

What I am looking for is to be able to accurately model freight formations which could reasonably have been seen on this stretch of line, either directly via Old Oak Common and North Acton, or via the Greenford Loop from the GWML (and theoretically, other formations and movements from Willesden Jn., etc.  Absolute historical accuracy, whilst preferable, is relegated slightly in favour of diversity in rolling stock.

 

I am a very much at an amateur stage thus far and genuinely would welcome ANY kind of suggestion, be it specific to this area, or more generally.  

 

Many thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing back from people.

 

Adam C (Weymouth)

[keefer]

Did freight go down the NNML towards Old Oak or was it confined to the Goods lines which ran alongside the Central Line? IIRC the Goods lines went past Wood Lane and came out onto the WLL just north of Uxbridge Rd.

 

I find this area fascinating, especially around North Acton with the lifted goods lines and rearranged platforms at the station, even more so now that the main line to Old Oak has been cut just past N. Acton.

Having seen a few YouTube videos the whole area looks so rural, you'd think you were on country branch lines and not in the middle of London!

Edited March 4, 2021 by keefer

[Davexoc]

I don't recall much freight, or anything really using the line by the 90s. You would have to check the exact dates when traffic finished, but the only freight that regularly used the line was the Thame BP tanks, and Guiness traffic to Park Royal. Not sure coal for Rugby Cement - Chinnor used the line, and I don't think the Northolt Binliner ever came south of loading point.

It was used by the up morning Brum - Padd and down evening balancing service. It was used to turn stock from OOC and the PZ beds went round the Greenford loop to get to Stonebridge Park, as OOC couldn't empty the retention tanks on the Mk3 sleepers.

Basically though, the GWML was too busy to allow anything to cross over towards North Pole Junction, so Mitre Bridge was used.

[The Stationmaster]

Depends what period you are looking at.  For example at one time the coal for Kensal Green gasworks came off the GC line and the trains were normally put off at North Acton to be tripped forward from there - they were some of teh last steam worked trains into the London area on the Western.  Park royal was always something ofa centre for traffic witha numv ber of customers in the area, including Guinness, having private sidings so there was a pilot at Park Royal well into the 1980s   And the trips from there worked by that time worked  from Acton via the Greenford branch as did the short lived liner train working.  Originally i think some freight traffic might have been tripped to/from Old Oak but that would have ceased after the freight yards at Old Oak were closed.

[Rivercider]

Where did the Northolt Binliner 5-sets go for maintenance?

I seem to recall from my time in Westbury TOPS (1996-99) that sets went somewhere (Old Oak Common?) for regular PPM (planned preventative maintenance) from both Northolt and Brentford terminals.

 

Edit - I normally worked on the desks covering TOPS inputs for the Westbury/Swindon/Bristol/Eastleigh areas, and did not normally cover the Acton area work. 

 

cheers

Edited March 5, 2021 by Rivercider

[the_orf84]

Thanks to everyone so far for your replies, really is quite humbling - I shall try and deal with some salient points made in turn.

 

23 hours ago, keefer said:

Did freight go down the NNML towards Old Oak or was it confined to the Goods lines which ran alongside the Central Line? IIRC the Goods lines went past Wood Lane and came out onto the WLL just north of Uxbridge Rd.

 

I find this area fascinating, especially around North Acton with the lifted goods lines and rearranged platforms at the station, even more so now that the main line to Old Oak has been cut just past N. Acton.

Having seen a few YouTube videos the whole area looks so rural, you'd think you were on country branch lines and not in the middle of London!

 

I always found the area fascinating Keefer and it is a strangely tucked away bit of line, quite removed from its mainline heyday.  At Greenford I seem to recall the lines were double tracked, except for the standard passing loops at Greenford which used to serve the GWR station. (closed in the sixties in favour of the Central Line's more practical extension).  I am assuming that there was the possibility of freight traffic heading westbound off the WLL via North Acton?

 

20 hours ago, Davexoc said:

I don't recall much freight, or anything really using the line by the 90s. You would have to check the exact dates when traffic finished, but the only freight that regularly used the line was the Thame BP tanks, and Guiness traffic to Park Royal. Not sure coal for Rugby Cement - Chinnor used the line, and I don't think the Northolt Binliner ever came south of loading point.

It was used by the up morning Brum - Padd and down evening balancing service. It was used to turn stock from OOC and the PZ beds went round the Greenford loop to get to Stonebridge Park, as OOC couldn't empty the retention tanks on the Mk3 sleepers.

Basically though, the GWML was too busy to allow anything to cross over towards North Pole Junction, so Mitre Bridge was used.

Davexoc, really interesting information.  Do you know what sort of rolling stock the Guinness Trains were likely to have used at this point?  With regards to Rugby Cement, there was the cement terminal which used the above-mentioned passing loops as a siding.  I clearly remember this working up until about 1990 - here is a picture from '87 to illustrate my point (photo credit to 6089Gardener on Flickr):

 

 

A couple of questions on the information you refer to - where did the Thame tanks originate?  Did the Northolt binliner get loaded there and then run down towards Calvert?

 

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Park royal was always something of a centre for traffic with a number of customers in the area, including Guinness, having private sidings so there was a pilot at Park Royal well into the 1980s   And the trips from there worked by that time worked  from Acton via the Greenford branch as did the short lived liner train working.  Originally i think some freight traffic might have been tripped to/from Old Oak but that would have ceased after the freight yards at Old Oak were closed.

Stationmaster, this is great stuff, many thanks.  I am trying to model something around the sectorisation period.  I have read there was a concern for Rockware Glass at Perivale into the eighties and, as you clearly indicate, there was still stuff going on at Park Royal well into my period.  When did the freight yards at OOC close, out of interest?  Also, what was the liner train?  I have never heard of it. 

 

5 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Where did the Northolt Binliner 5-sets go for maintenance?

I seem to recall from my time in Westbury TOPS (1996-99) that sets went somewhere (Old Oak Common?) for regular PPM (planned preventative maintenance) from both Northolt and Brentford terminals.

 

Edit - I normally worked on the desks covering TOPS inputs for the Westbury/Swindon/Bristol/Eastleigh areas, and did not normally cover the Acton area work. 

 

cheers

Thanks for this as well Rivercider, really interesting.  What were the sets composed of during that era?

 

I really am grateful to you all for your comments and feedback, thanks again.  

 

[keefer]

30 minutes ago, the_orf84 said:

I am assuming that there was the possibility of freight traffic heading westbound off the WLL via North Acton

I think so, as the Goods line was double-track. I know about the 'past' layout of lines etc. but don't really know anything about the traffic.

Nice article at Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acton–Northolt_line

That's about all I know really apart from the dates etc. shown in Joe Brown's London Rail Atlas.

 

[Rivercider]

I believe the West London Waste traffic was conveyed on standard Freightliner wagons formed into 5-sets. Loaded trains ran from Brentford and Northolt to Calvert. Edit - and I am now fairly certain the wagons did go to somewhere at Old Oak for the planned maintenance.

 

A bit before your timeframe but here is a set near Old Oak West Junction behind 50034 in 1984.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/6885537577/in/faves-72022549@N03/

 

Did the Marcon aggregates trains from Angerstein Wharf to Park Royal/Paddington go around that way also?

Here is a train at Park Royal in 1990

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/6885537577/in/faves-72022549@N03/

(sorry I don't know the area very well)

 

The Guinness traffic from Park Royal  passed on Speedlink loaded in a variety of wagon types. To begin with VAA/VBA/VDA I believe, but later replaced by the larger VGAs, weren't some ferry vans also used?

Some Guinness went to Bristol Kingsland Road, and also to Exeter St Davids/Exeter Central, Premier Transport were the agents who did the unloading in both places.

Premier TRansport unloading Guinness from a VGA at Kingsland Road. 20/9/83

 

 

cheers

Edited March 5, 2021 by Rivercider
Additional info

[Rivercider]

Here is 08022 Lion at Park Royal in 1989. In the background is a VGA, and a Grainflow polybulk wagon,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/60854097@N06/43147712305/in/photolist-28JPiCe-2a3Bsrw-2356ASS-HG47cd-HG6Fpw-25Q8JPv-nQwXG2-VzY3NK-WPzM6M-WKTLu5-fuDW9L-fuqnY4-fuq68x-fuEDWS-fuEEtf-2jCsRGS-24sGVnc-WebsG7-o654sJ-o84JJD-o81VVT-fuDVx3-24JU7HQ-o63RBS-fupN4z-2g4rRiL-25KZ7sJ-o9Pung-o5ZZDE-nQxmy4-24t4brF-fuqgxP-fuqe5K-fuEumY-HGhQbh-24K32fu-o613oN-o9PtE4-nQB1rU-fuEy5N-fuq6Dr-fupLVv-GaQu7i-24JLjmW-nQBMzk-o7YD3N-o63PDU-nQzw1N-nQyTWH-fuqdt4

 

cheers

[Rivercider]

The 1987 freight train loads book shows Ripple Lane to Thame, so presumably tanks loaded at Thameshaven?

There are loads shown for 2 x 31, 37, 47, and (surprising to me) 50.

 

cheers 

[Davexoc]

I think the Thame tanks originally came out of Grain, usually being Hither Green 33s. They switched to Ripple Lane/Thames Haven at some point.

 

Chinnor only ever received coal, all finished product was roaded out, mainly in tanks, but my neighbour drove a flatbed for bagged, often driving to Northfleet. The coal came in from Nottinghamshire until shortly before closure when it was imported, so it could come up the line, this link is interesting....

https://djipix.com/view/gallery/images?category=1&subcategory=1

 

The bin liner did run Northolt to Calvert, originally yellow GLC containers. As for maintenance, I'm wondering if Southall was used, which is handy for the Brentford - Calvert circuit.

 

Guiness was mainly vans, as has been seen, but interesting to see a Polybulk in there. They had the pair of 08s for shunting, so it must have been reasonably busy, and the two ocassions I went there was for an engine fault, and then a derailment.

There was also the other traffic into Park Royal, which had a pretty basic container crane, I know because as an apprentice whilst on Padd ODM was asked, "You scared of heights, cos' your mate bottled it yesterday?" We went down there, changed a cable guide on the winding drum, then popped into the BRSA club for Full English and a game of pool......

Nothing came or went while we were there that day back in the early 80s.

[the_orf84]

I must say I am delighted with these responses, I have found out more in the last 24 hours than I have in the previous four months, fantastic, thank you all once again.

 

5 hours ago, keefer said:

I think so, as the Goods line was double-track. I know about the 'past' layout of lines etc. but don't really know anything about the traffic.

Nice article at Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acton–Northolt_line

That's about all I know really apart from the dates etc. shown in Joe Brown's London Rail Atlas.

 

I will check that Atlas out keefer, many thanks.

 

5 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I believe the West London Waste traffic was conveyed on standard Freightliner wagons formed into 5-sets. Loaded trains ran from Brentford and Northolt to Calvert. Edit - and I am now fairly certain the wagons did go to somewhere at Old Oak for the planned maintenance.

 

A bit before your timeframe but here is a set near Old Oak West Junction behind 50034 in 1984.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/6885537577/in/faves-72022549@N03/

 

Did the Marcon aggregates trains from Angerstein Wharf to Park Royal/Paddington go around that way also?

Here is a train at Park Royal in 1990

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/6885537577/in/faves-72022549@N03/

(sorry I don't know the area very well)

 

The Guinness traffic from Park Royal  passed on Speedlink loaded in a variety of wagon types. To begin with VAA/VBA/VDA I believe, but later replaced by the larger VGAs, weren't some ferry vans also used?

Some Guinness went to Bristol Kingsland Road, and also to Exeter St Davids/Exeter Central, Premier Transport were the agents who did the unloading in both places.

Premier TRansport unloading Guinness from a VGA at Kingsland Road. 20/9/83

 

 

cheers

Rivercider - Acton Wells Junction, a bit of a legend on Flickr, has also claimed that the sets were maintained at OOC and run out to the various loading points, Brentford, Northolt, etc.  Amazing shot of a Class 50 doing that kind of work!  The photos of Park Royal are outstanding, this is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for, cheers.

 

4 hours ago, Davexoc said:

I think the Thame tanks originally came out of Grain, usually being Hither Green 33s. They switched to Ripple Lane/Thames Haven at some point.

 

Chinnor only ever received coal, all finished product was roaded out, mainly in tanks, but my neighbour drove a flatbed for bagged, often driving to Northfleet. The coal came in from Nottinghamshire until shortly before closure when it was imported, so it could come up the line, this link is interesting....

https://djipix.com/view/gallery/images?category=1&subcategory=1

 

The bin liner did run Northolt to Calvert, originally yellow GLC containers. As for maintenance, I'm wondering if Southall was used, which is handy for the Brentford - Calvert circuit.

 

Guiness was mainly vans, as has been seen, but interesting to see a Polybulk in there. They had the pair of 08s for shunting, so it must have been reasonably busy, and the two ocassions I went there was for an engine fault, and then a derailment.

There was also the other traffic into Park Royal, which had a pretty basic container crane, I know because as an apprentice whilst on Padd ODM was asked, "You scared of heights, cos' your mate bottled it yesterday?" We went down there, changed a cable guide on the winding drum, then popped into the BRSA club for Full English and a game of pool......

Nothing came or went while we were there that day back in the early 80s.

Davexoc, that link is a revelation as well, Class 20s at W. Ruislip and Peaks pulling binliners in 1988, some of this stuff is great.  Your anecdotes are also fantastic, albeit somewhat illustrative of quite how underused the line already was by the 1980s.  The Paddington - Birmingham services are interesting, as are the Class 115s - I believe these were normally Marylebone sets, so I assume these were diverted services into Paddington.  

 

Overall I feel I am starting to get a much better idea of the range of stuff I could reasonably model, although the frequency of services will likely be extremely unprototypical on the layout!  Please feel free to keep any ideas and information coming.  It has been quite emotional in a way, in that strangely nostalgic manner only railways seem to be able to evoke.  Indebted to you all, best wishes.

 

Adam C

[Rivercider]

I have a copy of Freight Only Volume 2 Southern and Central England by Rhodes and Shannon.

It lists trains passing Ealing Broadway as at January 1988 and includes:-

4A45 20.12 SX Old Oak Common to Brentford Refuse empties.

Which confirms to me that the Freightliner flats did go to OOC for planned maintenance.

In 1996-99 the trains from Old Oak to swap over the sets for maintenance ran as a 'Y' service which could run to either Brentford or Northolt as required, the Freightliner 5-sets would go for PPM at regular intervals (3 monthly perhaps?). 

I think that Old Oak could turn out any air braked loco to work the Freightliner set swaps. As it was a local move they might even use RW (Restricted Working) locos, perhaps with train heating defects, or locos booked in for exam later that week which they needed to keep local. That might explain the class 50 on the working.

 

Rugd1022 might know more, - he worked at Old Oak for a time.

 

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Rivercider said:

I have a copy of Freight Only Volume 2 Southern and Central England by Rhodes and Shannon.

It lists trains passing Ealing Broadway as at January 1988 and includes:-

4A45 20.12 SX Old Oak Common to Brentford Refuse empties.

Which confirms to me that the Freightliner flats did go to OOC for planned maintenance.

In 1996-99 the trains from Old Oak to swap over the sets for maintenance ran as a 'Y' service which could run to either Brentford or Northolt as required, the Freightliner 5-sets would go for PPM at regular intervals (3 monthly perhaps?). 

I think that Old Oak could turn out any air braked loco to work the Freightliner set swaps. As it was a local move they might even use RW (Restricted Working) locos, perhaps with train heating defects, or locos booked in for exam later that week which they needed to keep local. That might explain the class 50 on the working.

 

Rugd1022 might know more, - he worked at Old Oak for a time.

 

 

cheers

The Northolt and Brentford Binliner wagons were definitely maintained at Old Oak - there were booked paths for it as they were a regular PPM move.   I believe they were probably dealt with in the Pullman shed but can't be certain of that.

 

In the mid 1980s Cox & Danks were loading scrap out of their siding at Park Royal which was tripped round to Acton, I don't know when that traffic ceased.

 

As far as the E&SB is concerned between Ealing Broadway/North Acton and Wood Lane/Viaduct Junction the additional pair of lines for steam worked trains were provided during the 1930s and the original connection at Ealing Broadway was removed.  The steam worked lines route never had a booked passenger service as the Southall - Victoria service - for which it would have been idea - had gone  during the Great War.  ln later years this route was mainly used by milk trains/milk empties; the steam lines had been taken out of use by the late 1960s.

[Davexoc]

3 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I have a copy of Freight Only Volume 2 Southern and Central England by Rhodes and Shannon.

It lists trains passing Ealing Broadway as at January 1988 and includes:-

4A45 20.12 SX Old Oak Common to Brentford Refuse empties.

Which confirms to me that the Freightliner flats did go to OOC for planned maintenance.

In 1996-99 the trains from Old Oak to swap over the sets for maintenance ran as a 'Y' service which could run to either Brentford or Northolt as required, the Freightliner 5-sets would go for PPM at regular intervals (3 monthly perhaps?). 

I think that Old Oak could turn out any air braked loco to work the Freightliner set swaps. As it was a local move they might even use RW (Restricted Working) locos, perhaps with train heating defects, or locos booked in for exam later that week which they needed to keep local. That might explain the class 50 on the working.

 

1988 may have been the first year that the flats were maintained at OOC, the Pullman Shed had been quite busy previously with repainting locos in GWR and NSE liveries, plus it usually housed the breakdown crane once the old steam one went.

 

RW could also be post exam, especially if the traction motor brushes had been replaced. Generator brushes were bedded in manually prior to release, but TMs required a bit of restrained running to get them in full contact with the commutators. Or possibly awaiting a loaded test run if it had been reported low on power.

[Rivercider]

4 minutes ago, Davexoc said:

 

1988 may have been the first year that the flats were maintained at OOC, the Pullman Shed had been quite busy previously with repainting locos in GWR and NSE liveries, plus it usually housed the breakdown crane once the old steam one went.

 

RW could also be post exam, especially if the traction motor brushes had been replaced. Generator brushes were bedded in manually prior to release, but TMs required a bit of restrained running to get them in full contact with the commutators. Or possibly awaiting a loaded test run if it had been reported low on power.

Thanks for the additional info, that makes more sense. I never knew the London area very well until a few dealings 1996-99.

That should give Adam some more ideas for his layout,

 

cheers

[SED Freightman]

The following services to Greenford (Rugby Cement), Paddingtone New Yard (Tarmac Topmix) and Park Royal (Tarmac Topmix) appeared in the SR Freight WTT commencing 02/10/1989, they would all have been worked by Hither Green based locos and crews throughout.

 

6V25 0441 (SO) Halling RPC to Greenford RPCM - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop.

6O58 0935 (ThO) Greenford RPCM to Halling RPC - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn.

 

7V27 2032 (SX Y) Angerstein Wharf to Paddington New Yd - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop.

7O47 0302 (SX Y) Paddington New Yd to Angerstein Wharf - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn.

 

7V79 1312 (SX Y) Angerstein Wharf to Park Royal - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop.

7O65 1945 (SX Y) Park Royal to Plumstead Yd - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn.

 

7V79 1312 (SX Y) Angerstein Wharf to Paddington New Yd - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop.

7O65 1930 (SX Y) Paddington New Yd to Plumstead Yd - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn.

 

The BP oil traffic from Grain to Thame finished around 1984 with the run down of the BP Kent Refinery after which it originated from the Shell Refinery at Thameshaven, albeit still on BP's account I think.

 

In the days of VB wagonload traffic, Cox & Danks at Park Royal used to despatch scrap in minfits to Sheerness Steel, although no doubt they sold to other companies as well.

 

The coal traffic mentioned by Davexoc from North Kent to Chinnor passed in 1988 and the few trains that operated, conveying imported coal in HTV's, would have used the route via Greenford as they were worked by Hither Green crews who would previously have worked to Thame.  I have details of the motive power and formation of these services if anyone is interested.

[the_orf84]

At the risk of sounding like some overwrought Hollywood starlet getting an Academy Award

 

Thank you all very much!  The level of knowledge and detail here is quite astonishing.  I have been smashing the tops out of big conifers all day today, so will give this the attention it deserves over the next couple of days, until then, best wishes to you all!

[rob D2]

Binliner flats deffo went to OOC for maintenance , I’ve seen a reference to it elsewhere .

 

of course the Thame tanks  had dedicated heavyweight 37s from ripple lane in the period 87-91.

 

i’ve seen  reference to a 60 going there too just prior to it shutting in April 91 but no evidence anywhere 

Edited March 7, 2021 by rob D2

[SED Freightman]

On 05/03/2021 at 19:30, Davexoc said:

 

Chinnor only ever received coal, all finished product was roaded out, mainly in tanks, but my neighbour drove a flatbed for bagged, often driving to Northfleet. The coal came in from Nottinghamshire until shortly before closure when it was imported, so it could come up the line, this link is interesting....

https://djipix.com/view/gallery/images?category=1&subcategory=1

 

Thanks for posting the link showing (Image 35) the return working off 7Z63 1255 Hither Green Yd to Chinnor, which was worked by 33008 + 33057, and clearly shows that the SED locos and crews worked through to Chinnor, I guess there was not much route learning necessary to cover the branch from Princes Risborough.

[the_orf84]

It's getting a bit busy on here to be replying to quotes as I did before, but I have given everyone's responses some big thumbs ups etc., fantastic. 

 

So we have 

On 06/03/2021 at 17:03, SED Freightman said:

I have details of the motive power and formation of these services if anyone is interested.

 

I am VERY interested!   Here is a picture of a 33 on Greenford CT to Halling in April '87.

 

 

 

Rivercider, Davexoc - any excuse to run a 50 is duly grabbed!

 

On 06/03/2021 at 12:52, The Stationmaster said:

The Northolt and Brentford Binliner wagons were definitely maintained at Old Oak - there were booked paths for it as they were a regular PPM move.   I believe they were probably dealt with in the Pullman shed but can't be certain of that.

 

In the mid 1980s Cox & Danks were loading scrap out of their siding at Park Royal which was tripped round to Acton, I don't know when that traffic ceased.

 

As far as the E&SB is concerned between Ealing Broadway/North Acton and Wood Lane/Viaduct Junction the additional pair of lines for steam worked trains were provided during the 1930s and the original connection at Ealing Broadway was removed.  The steam worked lines route never had a booked passenger service as the Southall - Victoria service - for which it would have been idea - had gone  during the Great War.  ln later years this route was mainly used by milk trains/milk empties; the steam lines had been taken out of use by the late 1960s.

 

Stationmaster - great information again, many thanks.  A question from a novice (I think gamers call people like me 'noobs') - some of the acronyms pass me by - what is a PPM move and what is the E&SB?

 

On a similar note, I have noted on here, as well as in my Freightfax, mention of 'y' journeys.  What is a 'y' journey?  

 

Lastly, I quote from V. Mitchell & K. Smith, Paddington to Princes Risborough (Midhurst, 2002), plate. 34:  "...the train ('William Shakespeare Express', hauled by King Edward I on a special in '93) is joining the main line at Greenford West Junction...passing the 76-lever signal box...the sidings on the left had been used by Rockware Glass until about 1989 and thereafter by signal engineers" (my italics).

 

Does anybody know what Rockware were doing around Greenford in the late eighties.  I only ask as I have several rather smart blue Hornby PCA009s that I could use.

 

Once again...MANY THANKS TO YOU ALL!  

[SED Freightman]

21 minutes ago, the_orf84 said:

On a similar note, I have noted on here, as well as in my Freightfax, mention of 'y' journeys.  What is a 'y' journey? 

 

A train shewn as 'Y' in the WTT could run to more than one of two or more destinations as dictated by traffic demand.  In the case of the 7V79 1312 (SX Y) from Angerstein Wharf it could run to either Park Royal or Paddington New Yard as determined by the customer who would generally advise their requirements on a Thursday for the following week.  The details of where the train was to run on which day would then be published on a weekly or daily notice for signallers and ground staff whilst the train crew diagrams would also be amended as necessary.

[the_orf84]

1 hour ago, SED Freightman said:

A train shewn as 'Y' in the WTT could run to more than one of two or more destinations as dictated by traffic demand.  In the case of the 7V79 1312 (SX Y) from Angerstein Wharf it could run to either Park Royal or Paddington New Yard as determined by the customer who would generally advise their requirements on a Thursday for the following week.  The details of where the train was to run on which day would then be published on a weekly or daily notice for signallers and ground staff whilst the train crew diagrams would also be amended as necessary.

Thanks Freightman!  That makes a lot of sense.  I noticed in my 1990 Freightfax that a lot of Park Royal traffic by this point seems to be a 'Y', perhaps a reflection of a lower demand by this point?  Thanks for response.  Definitely interested in the formation details you mentioned if you have time as well.   

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, the_orf84 said:

It's getting a bit busy on here to be replying to quotes as I did before, but I have given everyone's responses some big thumbs ups etc., fantastic. 

 

So we have 

 

I am VERY interested!   Here is a picture of a 33 on Greenford CT to Halling in April '87.

 

 

 

Rivercider, Davexoc - any excuse to run a 50 is duly grabbed!

 

 

Stationmaster - great information again, many thanks.  A question from a novice (I think gamers call people like me 'noobs') - some of the acronyms pass me by - what is a PPM move and what is the E&SB?

 

On a similar note, I have noted on here, as well as in my Freightfax, mention of 'y' journeys.  What is a 'y' journey?  

 

Lastly, I quote from V. Mitchell & K. Smith, Paddington to Princes Risborough (Midhurst, 2002), plate. 34:  "...the train ('William Shakespeare Express', hauled by King Edward I on a special in '93) is joining the main line at Greenford West Junction...passing the 76-lever signal box...the sidings on the left had been used by Rockware Glass until about 1989 and thereafter by signal engineers" (my italics).

 

Does anybody know what Rockware were doing around Greenford in the late eighties.  I only ask as I have several rather smart blue Hornby PCA009s that I could use.

 

Once again...MANY THANKS TO YOU ALL!  

PPM means Plannned Preventative Maintenance although sometines the grammatically incorrect word 'Preventive' was used.

 

Y trains came in three different forms, viz -

1,  trains starting froma common point of origin witha variety of timetabled paths to enable them r to run to more than one destination without needing special timings to be prepared, or,

2. Trains to a common destination but with a variety of starting points (which would be relatively close to each other). -so a sort of 'inverted Y', or

3. A combination of the two - i.e. more than one potential starting point and motre than one potential destination but with much of the route between the two ends common to all.

 

Officially Y trains were permanently resourced which meant there was a loco diagrammed to them and traincrew. but sometimes the destinations could be quite a way apart meaning that a single crew couldn't cover every destination.  The big advantage of Y trains was that most things were preplanned and resourced so there was less need for short term planning work.  For example fertiliser trains running from Ince & Elton had Y paths to a number of destinations and there might be one or two which ran regularly on the same day of the week or whenever but very often their running to which destinations would be decided by a weekly programme issued. by the customer.

 

The E&SB was the Ealing & Shepherds Bush Railway which was promoted and wholly owned by the GWR and ran from Viaduct Junction (then named Shepherds Bush Jcn) /Wood lane to Ealing Broadway with a connection at Wood Lane end from an extension of the Central London Railway (CLR) beyond its then western terminus at White City.  The lne received Parliamentary Powers in 1911 but construction was delayed by the Great War  and although the line opened to goods traffic in 1917 it did not open to passenger traffic until August 1920.  it was agreed from the outset that the passenger service would be operated by the CLR and the line was accordingly electrified using a centre third raoil for power pick-up however the train service always appeared in the GWR timetable and was advertised as being run in co-operation with the CLR;  the GWR built  the intermediate stations and these still have some excellently preserved GWR designed buildings.  A separate pair of lines for use by steam trains were added alongside the original lines in the 1930s and the GWR freight etc services which used the line were moved across to them but they were connected to the GWR route at North Acton instead of Ealing Broadway.  The electric lines, converted to 3rd &4th rail operation around the 1930s remained in GWR ownership until nationalisation when they were transferred to London Transport.  

 

One oddity which benefits some of us holding certain levels of BR travel facilities is that we can use the line on our (nowadays National Rail)) passes because it had formerly been in railway company ownership and I could even travel all the way to Paddington - but no intermediaite stations between Whit City and there except to change to the Circle Line by LUL UndergrounD trains.  I did it many years ago just to prove that I could - with no problems.

[SED Freightman]

In 1988 a total of 11 trainloads of foreign coal were forwarded from Halling to Chinnor, the coal arrived via Rugby Cement's own wharf on the River Medway on a small vessel or barge having been delivered in a bulk carrier to Thamesport.  Two sets of HTV wagons were provided to convey the traffic, with loaded and empty sets being swapped at Chinnor, giving Rugby Cement about three days to load at Halling and a week to unload at Chinnor.  I have not managed to uncover full details for each train, but what I have is shewn below. The loaded wagons were generally tripped from Halling to either Hither Green or Hoo Junction on the day prior to the trunk movement or Friday if forward on Monday. The departure and arrival times are actual rather than planned.

 

Mon 22/02/1988

7Z50 0940 Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - 33008 + 33016 + 30 ld HTV's arr.?

 

Mon 29/02/1988

Hither Green Yd to Chinnor  - Loco ? + 34 ld HTV's arr.1345

 

Fri 04/03/1988

Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - Loco? + 32 ld HTV's arr.1230

 

Thu 10/03/1988

Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - Loco ? + 30 ld HTV's arr.1450

 

Thu 17/03/1988

Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - Loco? + 31 ld HTV's arr.1205

 

Fri 25/03/1988

7Z63 1222 Hoo Junction to Chinnor - 33040 + 33055 + 31 ld HTV's arr.1535

 

Fri 15/04/1988

7Z63 1237 Hoo Junction to Chinnor - 47186 + 29 ld HTV's arr.1544

 

Fri 22/04/1988

7Z63 1233 Hoo Junction to Chinnor - 47521 + 32 ld HTV's arr 1545

 

Fri 29/04/1988

7Z63 1255 Hither Green to Chinnor - 33057 + 33008 + 31 ld HTV's arr 1505

 

Fri 07/05/1988

7Z63 1424 Hither Green to Chinnor - 47339 + 34 ld HTV's arr.1755

 

Fri 13/05/1988

7Z63 1425 Hither Green to Chinnor - 47016 + 28 ld HTV's arr.1645