TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 I am considering a lighting pelmet for my 26ft long exhibition layout. The scenic section is 20ft with 3ft FY boards at each end. I have made lighting pelmets before - out of plywood - but now to save weight I am being told that FOAM BOARD is the thing to use. TBH I'm a bit sceptical as that material seems a little too fragile for the rough and tumble of taking to and from an exhibition. The idea is that there would be three 6ft 8ins sections, secured at each end into the fiddle yard screens, plus two supports in the middle coming over from the back. The pelmet needs to be 12 inches deep to allow space for the layout name boards Thoughts? Experiences? This cross section at the middle of the layout showing a braced support (one of two) supporting the centre section I hope the sketches are clear and easily understood Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2021 What lighting will you use? The weight will influence the strength of structure you need. I've recently started using strip LEDs which are a lot lighter than the small tubes I have used previously. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 Yes strip LEDS will be used Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said: Yes strip LEDS will be used In that case the weight of your name boards may be the critical factor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 yes they are a combined weight of 1.75 kg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2021 I've been using decent 3mm ply with strip wood bracing. Reasonably robust. Gloss paint make care a lot easier as well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 TEAMYAKIMA, in your second sketch, I also added a drop down piece of ply behind the strip, so the lights don't 'blind' the operators - 7 - 8 hours behind a layout is a long time to be staring at lights. Thus the tubes etc., are in a inverted U shaped pelmet. On Ynysbwl (Not my layout, but I've copied the idea on my revised Penlan layout) they use inverted guttering, suspended on a light metal square tube framework. Typical product is B&Q's https://www.diy.com/departments/floplast-white-square-gutter-length-l-3m-dia-114mm/90044_BQ.prd On Penlan originally I had thin ply on a 1.5" x 1" softwood framework, length 21' with support at either end and 2 support frames (as you envisage) at 1/3 distances (7'). The pelmet was in 3 lengths, 8.5' + 4' + 8.5'. At the time - early 1990's we used flourescent tube lighting, with all the ballast bits etc., in a insulated / vented container on the floor, copied from a layout seen at York Show one year (Beattock?) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, Gilbert said: I've been using decent 3mm ply with strip wood bracing. Reasonably robust. Gloss paint make care a lot easier as well. Thanks for that and that is the way I would do it, if left to my own devices. However, the desire for a lighting pelmet is being driven by two of my operating team and one in particular has come up with ideas and his ideas revolve around FOAM BOARD and so my post is really about seeking advice about the use of this unknown (to me) material called FOAM BOARD - I use capitals because I assume that it is a brand rather than a generic term. Has anyone used this material for a pelmet? I understand that this material is very lightweight, but will it stand up to the kind of treatment it will get being thrown in the back of a van, being set up, taken down, thrown in the back of a van and then dumped in a shed? And all of that several times a year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2021 I suspect Foamex is the best option then . Its certainly structurally stronger and more durable than some of the other foam boards. I think choice of adhesives (and possibly paint) is a key decision if you choose this option. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MPR Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2021 I used https://www.cutplasticsheeting.co.uk/product-category/browse_by_material/pvc-foamex-board/ for the backscenes for Torre - they cut it all to size for me. It's a fair bit lighter than plywood, but don't mistake it for the foam-cored card materials you can buy at Hobbycraft -it is much denser and more damage resistant. I also have a stock pre-cut for a lighting bar /pelmet in the "round-tuit" pile. I am going to make this as inverted "u" shape in two pieces each 4' long - in my case I will be using the name board to hide the join! It cuts very cleanly and can be drilled and pinned well enough to allow box sections to glued together effectively. Take a look at Re6/6 and 10800's posts on Balcombe to see this material being used on a larger scale! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Morgan Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2021 On a slightly different note, I like to have the lighting to be a bit forward of the front of the layout, otherwise, items at the front of the layout end up in their own shadow. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Ian Morgan said: On a slightly different note, I like to have the lighting to be a bit forward of the front of the layout, otherwise, items at the front of the layout end up in their own shadow. Yes, I understand that issue and will bear it in mind. However, as I have hinted at, this whole subject of layout lighting and presentation is a somewhat controversial one within my team. Basically, I don't particularly want layout lighting, but two of my team want me to consider it and so I am considering it. For those of you who don't know my layout, it's set in 2001 in a heavily polluted city in northern China and here is a video taken (not by me) at a similar location during one of my trips to the region. I visited there three times and never saw the sun once! Edited March 5, 2021 by TEAMYAKIMA 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 (edited) So, going on from my last post, a pelmet is genuinely being considered, but it won't necessarily have lighting. By that I mean, whilst I am not a fan of lighting for my particular layout I can see that a pelmet does add something to a layout - it frames it, it forces a viewer's attention onto the layout as it tends to hide all sorts of other distractions. So, there are two separate discussions going on - 1. Do we have a pelmet? 2. If we do, will it feature lighting? Maybe we will end up with a pelmet with lighting we can turn on/off. Let me make it clear that I am not against layout lighting in general; if I was modelling Cuba in July I would flood the layout with light, but as you can see an industrial city in northern China in 2001 could be a very dull place. Edited March 5, 2021 by TEAMYAKIMA 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 TEAMYAKIMA - Quote "Basically, I don't particularly want layout lighting," I would suggest that lighting is essential if you are intending to exhibit the layout. At least then you have some control over how it's seen for colours etc., Some Venues are ill lit, others have (or did have) Sodium lighting. Sports halls have subdued lighting suitable for sports, not suitable for exhibiting layouts. But Rule 1 - It's your layout, so do what you feel comfortable with. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SouthernRegionSteam Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2021 (edited) I agree with Penlan, and would also add that it's a good idea to have a lighting rig up and ready before you work on the scenery. The reason for this is that the colour of your scenery, or rather the perception of colour will change according to the colour temperature of the lights. If you don't fit LED lighting tapes, then you will have no control over the perceived colour of your scenery. As Penlan suggests, the amount and type of lighting differs immensely from venue to venue. Please do consider LED lighting tapes; at a base level, you still need your layout to be seen (and is more important for photography), and not having lights will not give an air of pollution; rather an unlit scene. I'd suggest that perhaps you could play around with adding decent amounts of LED strip BUT unlike any other layout, experiment with diffusion sheets of varying thickness over the layout (but under the lights) itself; to suggest thick cloud? Edited March 5, 2021 by SouthernRegionSteam 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 I would say lighting is essential for any exhibition layout. You can end up in some pretty dark corners and that isn’t good for the presentation of your layout. I need to design a lighting system for my layout but due to the shape I have to support the lighting from behind the scenic section which is going to be a pain. I was tempted to leave it without lighting but I know from experience that most exhibition venues simply don’t have good enough lighting for exhibiting model railways. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 10 hours ago, Gilbert said: I suspect Foamex is the best option then . Its certainly structurally stronger and more durable than some of the other foam boards. Sample ordered (5mm) - thanks for the 'heads-up' 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 6, 2021 Author Share Posted March 6, 2021 (edited) 20 hours ago, Chris M said: I would say lighting is essential for any exhibition layout. You can end up in some pretty dark corners and that isn’t good for the presentation of your layout 20 hours ago, Penlan said: I would suggest that lighting is essential if you are intending to exhibit the layout. At least then you have some control over how it's seen for colours etc., I hear what you say and will factor that in. I certainly take on board the fact that (I assume) we can dim the LEDS if we so wish - I will look into that. However, I would say that several RMwebbers who know China well agree with me that my glooomy grimy look is spot in for an industrial city - think of Yorkshire mining town in the 1900's. I have also started a separate thread on colour balance and received some VERY technical advice about lighting which I have taken very seriously and am factoring into the equation. Edited March 6, 2021 by TEAMYAKIMA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 (edited) Having seen this layout at (I think) CMRA, Stevenage, I would suggest that a lighting rig was important for a couple of reasons. Firstly, that the rig could also support a thin dark covering (maybe weed control sheet, or equivalent?) so that you had a controlled light environment, not influenced by the hall lighting. Secondly, you would then be able to take the lighting through a range of scenarios (dawn to dusk, including smog, etc) to suit the timetable, without the hall lighting having an effect. Edited March 6, 2021 by jcm@gwr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted March 6, 2021 Moderators Share Posted March 6, 2021 12 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said: Sample ordered (5mm) - thanks for the 'heads-up' It has more rigidity than foam board, you can probably drop to 3mm thickness. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 (edited) Your industrial gloom may be perfectly authentic but if people can't see the model clearly they'll walk past and go and look at something else. You're already challenging a lot of exhibition goers by exhibiting something foreign, they don't need more excuses to ignore you. It's a bit like authentic operation of GWR branch line terminii - if you run one train and tell the watching crowd that the next one isn't until half past two this afternoon, you won't get many more invitations. The thing with lighting is you can control it if you set it up properly, arrange it so some sections can be switched off if not needed or experiment with colours - there's a noticeable pink/sepia cast to your first clip. It doesn't have to look like high noon in Southern California, but theatres don't convey the impression of night time by just turning all the lights off. Edited March 6, 2021 by Wheatley 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 6, 2021 Author Share Posted March 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, Wheatley said: Your industrial gloom may be perfectly authentic but if people can't see the model clearly they'll walk past and go and look at something else. You're already challenging a lot of exhibition goers by exhibiting something foreign, they don't need more excuses to ignore you. I don't disagree with you, except that I have now gone to a lot of trouble to give passenger train full illuminated and detailed interiors, plus many of the shops and hotel have fully detailed and illuminated interiors and I'm worried that by increasing the light these details will be lost. 13 minutes ago, Wheatley said: It doesn't have to look like high noon in Southern California, but theatres don't convey the impression of night time by just turning all the lights off. Yes, I (now) agree. As I have said, the other thread on RMweb about lighting has given us a lot of ideas and a lot of very technical information about the colour balance of light and we will be experimenting with these ideas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 (edited) If the illuminated detailed coach interiors are anything like the trains I travelled on in Chine some 25+ years ago, then that will be interesting. I was managing Civil Engineering contracts, etc., Think basic toilet - no door, kettle on a heater/stove for tea etc., Nothing to do with the topic, but I was always amazed as we came in to land at Nanjing Airport to see people cycling along on the (edge ?) runway. Edited March 6, 2021 by Penlan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 6, 2021 Author Share Posted March 6, 2021 17 minutes ago, Penlan said: If the illuminated detailed coach interiors are anything like the trains I travelled on in Chine some 25+ years ago, then that will be interesting (I was managing Civil Engineering contracts, etc.,) Think basic toilet, kettle on a heater/stove for tea etc., Basic toilet? Like this? Taken on a local train in 2013. This is an example of my interiors. I realise that they are unrealistically bright, but I want viewers to see the detail 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al. Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 (edited) It may help this conversation if people could include photos and basic dimensions/weights of their layout pelmet and lighting rigs. Its an issue I too have been considering for some time now on my layout. As yet, I've not found a suitable answer. Edited March 6, 2021 by Al. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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