Exhibition lighting pelmets - construction and presentation

[Penlan]

The only image I can find of my Pelmet is this one at York and I think that's 'Beattock' behind.   Oh and another at Railex....
The extra brightness in the centre of 21 ft length is from another inverted 'U' box, a foldable 3' 6" + 3' 6" trough that clipped onto the two supports (spaced 7' apart) that lit the rear part of the layout, which also meant we - the operators - could see the stock to some advantage too.
As to weight, heavy 'ish.
Re. Dimming LED's, my understanding there are now LED's that can be dimmed.
Oh, and yes, that's obviously a 1st Class toilet......  though missing the bucket for the soiled paper. 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Penlan

[SouthernRegionSteam]

I've got two videos about this very subject coming up at the virtual show next weekend, but for now...
Most LED tapes can be dimmed with the appropriate controller (usually a 1-10V dimmer). Above all, it is the LED DRIVER that you must make sure is able to be dimmed; as not all can!
Whilst I'm here, you also need to make sure the driver can power your intended set-up;

Minimum power of driver needed in watts = (length of LED tape in metres x LED tape's power (W) per metre) + 20% headroom
(As with all electronics; always check with the manufacturer or supplier if you're unsure; 9 times out of 10 they'll help you choose the correct components for your set up!)

With regards to pelmets, I stick to my tried and trusted 3mm ply and 35mm x 35mm PSE softwood arms. Good strength to weight ratio; especially crucial if you plan on attaching heavy nameboards to it! The 3mm ply fascias lift off via small homemade 3mm ply brackets. I mount the LED strip directly to aluminium mini-trunking which both acts as a heatsink, and also allows me to add clip on diffusion covers.

Again, all this will be shown at the virtual exhibition, and again in a future article for BRM 

[bbishop]

Paul, The Foamex is a good idea.  However I use "market stall" technology for a basic structure that breaks down into a set of square metal tubes.  Easy to transport and quick to set up.  If you are proposing to light your layout, you must separate 240v a.c. from a metal skeleton.

Bill

[Penlan]

 

14 hours ago, bbishop said:

  If you are proposing to light your layout, you must separate 240v a.c. from a metal skeleton.

Bill

I have a dedicated box on the floor just for lighting power.

completely remote from the Layouts power box on the floor too. 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

14 hours ago, bbishop said:

Paul, The Foamex is a good idea.  However I use "market stall" technology for a basic structure that breaks down into a set of square metal tubes.  

 

Hi Bill

 

Any photos?

 

PAul

[Al.]

54 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

Hi Bill

 

Any photos?

 

PAul

 

This stuff.

 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/164483062028316/

 

[luke_stevens]

On 06/03/2021 at 18:31, SouthernRegionSteam said:

I've got two videos about this very subject coming up at the virtual show next weekend, but for now...
Most LED tapes can be dimmed with the appropriate controller (usually a 1-10V dimmer). Above all, it is the LED DRIVER that you must make sure is able to be dimmed; as not all can!
Whilst I'm here, you also need to make sure the driver can power your intended set-up;

Minimum power of driver needed in watts = (length of LED tape in metres x LED tape's power (W) per metre) + 20% headroom
(As with all electronics; always check with the manufacturer or supplier if you're unsure; 9 times out of 10 they'll help you choose the correct components for your set up!)

With regards to pelmets, I stick to my tried and trusted 3mm ply and 35mm x 35mm PSE softwood arms. Good strength to weight ratio; especially crucial if you plan on attaching heavy nameboards to it! The 3mm ply fascias lift off via small homemade 3mm ply brackets. I mount the LED strip directly to aluminium mini-trunking which both acts as a heatsink, and also allows me to add clip on diffusion covers.

Again, all this will be shown at the virtual exhibition, and again in a future article for BRM 

 

I look forward to your article and next weeks V-show!

 

I'm slightly puzzled by you discussion of a driver. I understand how they are needed for domestic lighting but most of the lighting that Teamyakima and I have been talking about are the 12v strips with a wallwart power supply: just plug it in and it pumps out the 12v needed for the led lighting strip. My thought was that if we need less light we could just use less strips of led's.

 

This sort of thing:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lights-Dimmable-Bedroom-Cabinet-Included/dp/B0899C89VD/ref=pd_ybh_a_24?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=S10GBD2Y7A56STSX3GQX

 

Have I mis-understood? I'm not sure how a driver fits in.

 

Luke

[bbishop]

22 hours ago, Al. said:

 

This stuff.

 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/164483062028316/

 

 

Absolutely.  You need steel plates for feet, otherwise there will be complaints about scratched floors.  Also you can design in flexible lengths - I'll get some down from the garage roof and photograph.  Bill

[SouthernRegionSteam]

12 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

 

I look forward to your article and next weeks V-show!

 

I'm slightly puzzled by you discussion of a driver. I understand how they are needed for domestic lighting but most of the lighting that Teamyakima and I have been talking about are the 12v strips with a wallwart power supply: just plug it in and it pumps out the 12v needed for the led lighting strip. My thought was that if we need less light we could just use less strips of led's.

 

Have I mis-understood? I'm not sure how a driver fits in.

 

Hi Luke,
Thank you; hopefully the article and the videos in the virtual show will be useful!

You are quite right that I've purposefully overlooked what I call "all-in-one systems" with generic 12V "power supplies". Yes, you can absolutely buy them and they will likely work, however, I've had a bad experience using them, and simply cannot, with a good conscience, recommend them. Without wishing to put my foot in it completely, let's just say that most of these products come from countries that, despite being sold to UK markets, do not meet our necessary strict electric regulations.

 

The first set I bought was like you linked to, and my particular example suffered from an annoying hum, and also didn't seem to power the LEDs properly (low brightness). The second set I bought was slightly different and came with a standard plug and lead, with an additional plastic cased power supply. Alarm bells rang when there was no fuse fitted in the plug that should've been fitted with one. Upon cutting off the existing plug with the intention of re-wiring it, I realised the wires themselves were woefully thin and the plastic insulation just didn't seem all that adequate. It is true that, for very short runs of wire you can get away with a thin gauge of wire, but this seemed to be taking the biscuit!

 

The advantages I see over using dedicated LED drivers are:

• You can build up a really versatile system - by buying a driver that has larger power than you need, you can, if you need to in the future, expand the set-up with future LED tapes, and use it for multiple layouts.
• A proper LED driver is purposefully designed with LEDs in mind; in base terms, this improves efficiency, reduces flickering, and generally prolongs the life of LED tapes.
• Power supplies (and drivers) get hot when under load. That's why I've started buying drivers that are made from aluminium casings; this acts as a heatsink, keeps temperatures under control, and again helps prolong its life.

What I'm saying is that I personally can't trust cheap systems in terms of electrical safety and longevity. It's worth doing it "properly", preferably making use of UK suppliers who can also guide you on the set-up you'll need. It's important for even low voltage 12V wiring to be safe, so it's imperative that anything connected to the mains is doubly so; especially at exhibitions.

I will add that I'm not an electrician, but having had bad experiences of cheap LED systems and seeing people make the same mistake; I've spent weeks researching and fact-checking to make sure the advice I'm giving is sound. And like I said, if in doubt, ask a supplier; they'll do all they can to help you chose a safe & suitable set-up as it's their business on the line!

[TEAMYAKIMA]

24 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

Hi Luke,
Thank you; hopefully the article and the videos in the virtual show will be useful!

Are the videos on a set day and time? Will they be available for a day or so after the event?

[Penlan]

34 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

Power supplies (and drivers) get hot when under load. That's why I've started buying drivers that are made from aluminium casings; this acts as a heatsink, keeps temperatures under control, and again helps prolong its life.

My Lighting supply box has an small extractor fan fitted at one end and vents at the other end to keep it all cool.

 

[luke_stevens]

1 hour ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

Are the videos on a set day and time? Will they be available for a day or so after the event?

Hi Paul,

 

This is the link to the RMweb announcement and info page.

 

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/information/world-of-railways-virtual-exhibition

 

From past experience the videos were available for the 2 days of the exhibition (but they may have been moved somewhere else and I can't find them!)

 

Luke

[SouthernRegionSteam]

1 hour ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

Are the videos on a set day and time? Will they be available for a day or so after the event?

 I've just emailed and had a response from BRM;

Part 1 (Layout lighting - Theory)  is pencilled in to appear at 10:30am on Saturday
Part 2 (Layout lighting - Practical) is pencilled in to appear at 3:20pm the same day

The videos will be linked from my personal Youtube channel, so the links should still work indefinitely, but the page will disappear on Monday morning; so you'll have to save the link to the video itself.

Hope that helps!

Edited March 8, 2021 by SouthernRegionSteam

[luke_stevens]

2 hours ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

You are quite right that I've purposefully overlooked what I call "all-in-one systems" with generic 12V "power supplies". Yes, you can absolutely buy them and they will likely work, however, I've had a bad experience using them, and simply cannot, with a good conscience, recommend them. Without wishing to put my foot in it completely, let's just say that most of these products come from countries that, despite being sold to UK markets, do not meet our necessary strict electric regulations.

 

Hi,

 

Would it be possible to do something on them? They are likely to be the sort of thing most modellers are going to investigate.

 

Is it the LED's or the power supplies that you feel are the problem? Is it the unbranded items from internet auction sites that are the problem?

 

Those that I have used are purchased from UK retail suppliers (Screwfix) and I've had no problems with heat, load or hum.

 

Yours,

 

Luke  

[SouthernRegionSteam]

1 minute ago, luke_stevens said:

Would it be possible to do something on them? They are likely to be the sort of thing most modellers are going to investigate.

Is it the LED's or the power supplies that you feel are the problem? Is it the unbranded items from internet auction sites that are the problem?

Those that I have used are purchased from UK retail suppliers (Screwfix) and I've had no problems with heat, load or hum.

In retrospect, perhaps it would've been wise to mention these all-in-one kits in the videos; but hopefully by talking specifically about drivers, people will get the idea (like you realised) that I've avoided them for a reason. Either way, I don't see what else I can specifically talk about with those kits that hasn't already been mentioned. In any case, to edit the video, re-upload it, and send a fresh link would take many hours; all for the sake of adding one or two sentences. I will however pop a note in the description!

Regardless, my problem with these kits is specifically the plugs/power supplies. To be honest it's harder to go "wrong" with LED tapes; and indeed most are manufactured in China, even if you buy from UK suppliers. The power supply is where I would be cautious, as that is where the danger lies; after all, you're dealing with mains voltage inputs! Like I said, try and stick to proper LED suppliers in the UK. It doesn't guarantee that everything will be UK made (they probably won't be), but it should give you a little more peace of mind with regards to safety and guarantees. There are a lot of dodgy, supposedly "EU compliant" electronics that are readily available online on places like Amazon and Ebay to name just two sites.

[Huw Griffiths]

On 08/03/2021 at 14:44, SouthernRegionSteam said:

Regardless, my problem with these kits is specifically the plugs/power supplies. To be honest it's harder to go "wrong" with LED tapes; and indeed most are manufactured in China, even if you buy from UK suppliers. The power supply is where I would be cautious, as that is where the danger lies; after all, you're dealing with mains voltage inputs! Like I said, try and stick to proper LED suppliers in the UK. It doesn't guarantee that everything will be UK made (they probably won't be), but it should give you a little more peace of mind with regards to safety and guarantees. There are a lot of dodgy, supposedly "EU compliant" electronics that are readily available online on places like Amazon and Ebay to name just two sites.

 

Jamie,

 

What you're saying here strikes me as fair comment.

 

As far as I'm concerned, one of the biggest problems with auction sites is the element of "buying blind" - especially if you're dealing with a vendor you haven't encountered before. They might be taking all reasonable steps to ensure that everything they sell is safe, good quality etc - they might not - unless you're dealing with someone you know you can trust, you probably haven't got a clue - and that prospect scares me.

 

At various times, there have been a number of features on TV consumer programmes about mains powered electronics from "unknown" suppliers - phone chargers that have burst into flames - stuff like that. OK - this doesn't happen all the time - but it does happen and I'd personally prefer to improve the odds of this particular lottery.

 

In a previous job, I had to do a lot of PAT testing (electrical safety tests on "portable" - ie plug-fitted - electrical appliances) - across a couple of departments in a university (this was in addition to a lot of strain gauging and other set-up work). Some of the stuff I encountered terrified me. Since then, I've also encountered other mains powered electrical / electronic stuff that I really haven't liked - some of it sold in the UK - some abroad. I could list a number of specific examples right now - but I'd I'd prefer not to. Let's just say that some of this stuff seemed more than capable of introducing an unwelcome "buzz" for anyone not alert to the possibilities.

 

It would, however, be fair to say that I tend to be extremely cautious about where I get any mains powered electronics from - and how I set it up - especially if I intend any of it to stay mains powered. in case this last comment sounds like nonsense, I have occasionally bought some stuff specifically to break down into smaller sections or component parts.

 

For example, I have been known to buy some LED lighting sets, with the intention of installing suitably modified sections inside model railway coaches - stuff like that. However, before I cut or fit anything - certainly before I switch anything on - I make a point of working out exactly what I'm trying to do, working out a safe and effective way of achieving this and checking my work at every stage.

 

Of course, in my case, there is a factor which doesn't apply to a lot of people - I've got a HND in Electrical & Electronic Engineering, plus a hobby electronics background for a number of years before I even enrolled on my college course. In other words, I know what I'm doing - and I don't take chances with stuff I don't know.

 

 

Your comments suggest to me that you are also not in the habit of taking chances. I haven't seen any of your wiring etc - and I haven't yet seen your videos (I intend to, though) - but I suspect that any final installations (or anything you'd choose to display at shows) would probably be done to a high standard.

 

I've mentioned that I did a lot of safety tests in a university - in labs - in classrooms - and in various people's offices. I quickly learnt that people who asked questions or generally checked things didn't tend to have too much in the way of really dodgy electrical stuff. On the other hand, there were also some people who adopted a "couldn't care less" attitude, especially when it came to electrical safety.

 

The moment I encountered those guys, I let them know that "their cards were marked". I made a point of being painfully thorough with their gear - anything I didn't like instantly got condemned - and I made a point of not taking a moment's nonsense. Strangely enough, a lot of them quickly decided that they weren't too keen on this - and they learnt their lesson. The few that didn't eventually got the message - because I made it clear that I've got a good memory and I wasn't going away. Strange, that ... .

 

 

Huw.

[SouthernRegionSteam]

1 hour ago, Huw Griffiths said:

Of course, in my case, there is a factor which doesn't apply to a lot of people - I've got a HND in Electrical & Electronic Engineering, plus a hobby electronics background for a number of years before I even enrolled on my college course. In other words, I know what I'm doing - and I don't take chances with stuff I don't know.

 

Your comments suggest to me that you are also not in the habit of taking chances. I haven't seen any of your wiring etc - and I haven't yet seen your videos (I intend to, though) - but I suspect that any final installations (or anything you'd choose to display at shows) would probably be done to a high standard.

 

Huw,
Thank you for the indepth affirmation of my worries about buying mains-rated equipment from online auction sites and marketplaces; it's good that someone with an actual degree (unlike me!) can shed some light (pun intended!) on these dangers. I wouldn't say I've never taken chances before, but certainly making these videos has taught me a lot about how to construct a safer set-up, and the importance of doing so. It's also made me realise that it's probably worth going back to my layout and making some minor tweaks; thankfully nothing on the mains side as I was always wary about this aspect, but moreso on allowing a bit more leeway by increasing the gauge of wires, and taking precautions on exposed wires etc.

 

Ultimately, the deeper you dig, the more you realise that almost everyone takes risks without them even really knowing. I didn't want to say "do this and you'll definitely be fine", as I don't have the qualifications for that, but I knew that even some basic precautions were easy to master; hence why I researched as much as I could so that I could share this information in these videos. Hopefully I've more or less hit the nail on the head, and that the videos (particularly the first one) are as accurate as possible!

[TEAMYAKIMA]

On 08/03/2021 at 13:54, SouthernRegionSteam said:

Part 1 (Layout lighting - Theory)  is pencilled in to appear at 10:30am on Saturday

I've just watched video #1 and want to ask what depth of board were you considering with your example of 1, 2 or three lines of LED's.

 

My layout's scenic section is 3ft wide (x 20ft long) - how many strips of LED's going back towards the backscene would you be thinking of?  BTW an exhibition only layout so all has to be dismantlable.

[SouthernRegionSteam]

6 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I've just watched video #1 and want to ask what depth of board were you considering with your example of 1, 2 or three lines of LED's.

 

My layout's scenic section is 3ft wide (x 20ft long) - how many strips of LED's going back towards the backscene would you be thinking of?  BTW an exhibition only layout so all has to be dismantlable.

 

I expected such a layout to be between 2ft and 3ft (as per most layouts I've exhibited in the past).

Generally speaking I would still suggest 3 runs of LED strips wherever possible.
My layout is only 2' 2" wide, and still uses 3 runs; any less wouldn't be as effective at lighting the whole scene.
Ultimately there is no hard rule, and you are free to experiment, but if it was me, I'd play it safe with 3 runs.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 minute ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

Ultimately there is no hard rule, and you are free to experiment, but if it was me, I'd play it safe with 3 runs.

OK, thanks, good. I was thinking you might say four or five.

[Al.]

5 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

 

I expected such a layout to be between 2ft and 3ft (as per most layouts I've exhibited in the past).

Generally speaking I would still suggest 3 runs of LED strips wherever possible.
My layout is only 2' 2" wide, and still uses 3 runs; any less wouldn't be as effective at lighting the whole scene.
Ultimately there is no hard rule, and you are free to experiment, but if it was me, I'd play it safe with 3 runs.

 Just watched the video. Interesting stuff.

[SouthernRegionSteam]

1 minute ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

OK, thanks, good. I was thinking you might say four or five.

So long as you use the high density strips (60 LEDs/M) and your rig isn't a million miles in the air from the layout itself, 3 runs should be plenty.

Of course, as explained in the video, so long as you buy a bigger driver than needed, you can always add additional strips should you find that you need that bit more light in the future.

 

2 minutes ago, Al. said:

Just watched the video. Interesting stuff.

Cheers Al! Glad it was of use. Look out for an article in BRM at some point (hopefully this year). As we speak, I'm about 60% through the article creation stage, so hopefully it won't be long 'til it appears.

[Huw Griffiths]

Jamie,

 

Is your photographic lighting setup (from today's second video) likely to feature in the article?

 

It looks rather interesting.

 

 

Huw.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Huw Griffiths

[ColinK]

I found the lighting videos today very interesting and useful. It would be helpful to know more about the metal enclosures and diffusers - I hadn’t seen them before.

[SouthernRegionSteam]

35 minutes ago, Huw Griffiths said:

Is your photographic lighting setup (from today's second video) likely to feature in the article?

It looks rather interesting.

Thanks Huw; yes, the photographic rig will feature in the article, though I do need to take some proper photos of the finished thing as the "studio" was an absolute mess when I started filming this back in November (yes, I have been working on these videos on and off since the last virtual show)! I'll do a normal how-to section in the article explaining the build step-by-step; so almost everything from both videos will be condensed into the article.
 

12 minutes ago, ColinK said:

I found the lighting videos today very interesting and useful. It would be helpful to know more about the metal enclosures and diffusers - I hadn’t seen them before.

Thanks Colin! The aluminium mini-trunking was actually bought from Amazon, mostly because I was originally rushed for time (these videos were due for the previous virtual show, but they became so complex that I couldn't finish them in time). Search for "aluminium LED profile", and you should find that there are packs available on there that come with those end caps and diffusers. I must admit it was the first time I had come across them too, but they're absolutely brilliant, and ideal for versatile set-ups where you don't need a curved lighting rig. Obviously, if you have the time to research alternatives from local manufacturers/suppliers, then all the better!