Class 504 Bury Units

[Wagonmaster]

Hi everyone, after a bit more help and advice please. This time its the Class 504 Bury units. I have acquired some DC Kits cabs and grafted them onto some Replica Railways suburban stock. I intend to turn these units out in original green livery. So, does anyone know what green was used? It looks like standard loco green to me?

 

Anyone have a good idea of the under gubbins? I've been trawling through photographs but as always, you can't seem to see all of it.

 

I have modified the cab windows and destination box and I think I'm about there. What does everyone else think? Do I need to do anything else?

 

All replies gratefully received.

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Wagonmaster
Reinstating photo

[Bill Radford]

My first thought was Barrowmore Model Railway Group..

 

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/CS/Book_No_210_EK_web.pdf

 

...but they are very basic and take some finding!

 

[philsandy]

1 hour ago, Wagpnmaster said:

Hi everyone, after a bit more help and advice please. This time its the Class 504 Bury units. I have acquired some DC Kits cabs and grafted them onto some Replica Railways suburban stock. I intend to turn these units out in original green livery. So, does anyone know what green was used? It looks like standard loco green to me?

 

Anyone have a good idea of the under gubbins? I've been trawling through photographs but as always, you can't seem to see all of it.

 

I have modified the cab windows and destination box and I think I'm about there. What does everyone else think? Do I need to do anything else?

 

All replies gratefully received.

 

Very nice job, don't think you've missed anything, they look right to me. I converted a Bachmann 2EPB and used DC Kits cab ends and roofs. I left the under frames as they were, not right, but it needed a lot of work to convert, so left them as they are, apart from modifying the current collecting shoe.

Here is a link with some photos of mine. Also a drawing showing some detail of the underframes.

 

 

 

 

[Wagonmaster]

Thanks for the replies. Thanks to Philsandy for the drawing showing the underframe gubbins. The Barrowmore drawings often don't show this detail.

 

Thanks for the link to your build. I have read this with great interest and just shows there's more than one way to tackle a problem. Your build looks excellent by the way.  Hope mine ends up looking as good.

 

What shade of green paint did you use?

 

 

[philsandy]

1 hour ago, Wagpnmaster said:

Thanks for the replies. Thanks to Philsandy for the drawing showing the underframe gubbins. The Barrowmore drawings often don't show this detail.

 

Thanks for the link to your build. I have read this with great interest and just shows there's more than one way to tackle a problem. Your build looks excellent by the way.  Hope mine ends up looking as good.

 

What shade of green paint did you use?

 

 

 

The green is the standard BR green as used on diesels, DMU's etc. I used a car spray, Hycote brand - Ford Laurel Green, it's a good match.

[PenrithBeacon]

Not sure. The green BR used on steam and diesel engines was BS381c 224 Deep Bronze Green. I know I researched it at the NRM.

Observations show me that the green for dmus was different perhaps BS381c 226 Mid Brunswick Green. Railmatch do the colour https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/general-modelling/railmatch-brand/railmatch-rm1308.html but people complain it's in enamel. 

[Wagonmaster]

Paint shades are always a problem, especially so far down the line from when they were used. I would tend to go with locomotive green as well. Multiple Unit green was a slightly lighter shade and the earlier MU green lighter still. The Southern Region had their own shade of MU green too. 

 

Looking at photographs and I know that is a minefield in itself, seems to indicate a darker green. One photo I have has a Met-Cam dmu in the background, which does look a lighter shade. The preserved one also seems quite a dark green. Perhaps they know something?

 

I still tend to use enamels as I find they give a better finish, for me anyway. I know it's  not very green ;-)

 

Still a few minor body tweaks to do, as well as sorting the underframe and motorisation options.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Wagpnmaster
Typo

[adb968008]

I have several pieces of a real 504 unit.

 

below is a paint chipped off piece off the front dimensions plate, which has visible BR green paint under the yellow end..ive flipped it upside down, so your getting the non-exposed side of the paint, therefore not faded/ contaminated by yellow etc.

 

i can confirm Bachmann DMU green is very close.

Edited March 7, 2021 by adb968008

[andyman7]

The 504s by the mid 60s appeared to have loco green rather than MU green, with two thick straw bands, one at waist height and one below the cantrail. The 501s carried a similar livery.

Edited March 8, 2021 by andyman7

[adb968008]

17 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

The 504s by the lid 60s appeared to have loco green rather than MU green, with two thick straw bands, one at waist height and one below the cantrail. The 501s carried a similar livery.

Whatever it is, I can assure you the piece in the picture above is the real thing..

ive got quite a lot more of it I can chip off !  The paint layers are around 4mm thick down to the aluminium plate.

 

Theres distinctive layers of different shades of yellow (about 3mm of it), then green, and undercoat maroon.

Edited March 7, 2021 by adb968008

[Grovenor]

IMHO there were two very distinct DMU greens. The dark one as in the Bachmann pic above which was also used on the M/c - Crewe AM$ units and the Bury electrics. And then a much lighter DMU green more common on suburban style units and, IIRC the Euston - Watford electrics.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

IMHO there were two very distinct DMU greens. The dark one as in the Bachmann pic above which was also used on the M/c - Crewe AM$ units and the Bury electrics. And then a much lighter DMU green more common on suburban style units and, IIRC the Euston - Watford electrics.

The 501s (Euston-Watford electrics were delivered in the lighter green but as I stated, by the mid 60s had acquired the darker green with straw lining. 501s are a bit of a specialist subject of mine.....

[Wagonmaster]

Thanks for all the replies, all gratefully appreciated. Bodywork is still having a few final tweaks before the top coats are applied. I had a look at Ford Laurel Green and it is quite close. How about the light grey roof? Is Ford Dove Grey a good match?

 

Lining seems to be a problem, not just with the Class 504, but other units too. I have the measurements somewhere, but generally the cantrail line is thinner than the waistband line. However, when Iook at available multiple unit lining packs, they only seem to be the one thickness. Am I missing something or just looking in the wrong place?

 

As for the Class 501's, that's a subject of a future build!

[philsandy]

10 hours ago, Wagpnmaster said:

Thanks for all the replies, all gratefully appreciated. Bodywork is still having a few final tweaks before the top coats are applied. I had a look at Ford Laurel Green and it is quite close. How about the light grey roof? Is Ford Dove Grey a good match?

 

Lining seems to be a problem, not just with the Class 504, but other units too. I have the measurements somewhere, but generally the cantrail line is thinner than the waistband line. However, when Iook at available multiple unit lining packs, they only seem to be the one thickness. Am I missing something or just looking in the wrong place?

 

As for the Class 501's, that's a subject of a future build!

 

I used Fox cream lining, 0.5mm (cantrail) and 0.75mm (waistband). As for the roof, I painted mine in dark grey, Volkswagen Urano Grey, then sprayed with a matt varnish to take the gloss off. Sorry I don't know a match for light grey.

What year are you modelling? Going off the photos I have, the light grey roofs didn't seem to be around for long. Plenty of photos from 1959 when they were introduced with light grey roofs, then none till 1962 onwards, by then they all seem to be the darker grey.

I don't know whether they were repainted (I doubt it), I think they just got dirty.

[Wagonmaster]

Thanks for that Philsandy. I am modelling my 504 in 'as built' condition, hence the light grey roof. I didn't think the roof colour changed to dark grey until Corporate Blue livery? I guess the light grey just got dirty. Carriage washers only did the sides! There were still plenty of steamers in that area at the time as well.

 

Thanks for the pointer on lining. The dedicated packs don't seem to have the different widths for units. I have several other units that will need lining, so that's very useful.

 

I'll post a few more pictures of progress in due course.

[adb968008]

56 minutes ago, Wagpnmaster said:

Thanks for that Philsandy. I am modelling my 504 in 'as built' condition, hence the light grey roof. I didn't think the roof colour changed to dark grey until Corporate Blue livery? I guess the light grey just got dirty. Carriage washers only did the sides! There were still plenty of steamers in that area at the time as well.

 

Thanks for the pointer on lining. The dedicated packs don't seem to have the different widths for units. I have several other units that will need lining, so that's very useful.

 

I'll post a few more pictures of progress in due course.

I never saw a carriage washer at Bury...

 

not even a man with a bucket and brush... it was 3rd rail afterall.

Not even on a sunday, the place was a ghost town.

 

 

dont know how they washed them, or if they did.

Edited March 12, 2021 by adb968008

[shady]

I remember going to bury on a Sunday in the early eighties and all of us (unofficial oxford coach tour) just walking round as it was deserted (we did not know if the juice was live , but made sure we did not find out!) . Think we spotted all the 504's that day.

 

 

[Wagonmaster]

A bit more work on my Class 504. The bodies have now had their initial coats of paint and are beginning to look like 504's. The other paint details will be next. The lining, numbers and other transfers will be tackled after all the painting.

 

Under the bodies a lot has been going on. It is now motorised and runs by itself. I used a secondhand Hornby Class 153 motor bogie fitted in the cradle cut off a Class 153 chassis. A rectangular hole was cut out of the Replica chassis and the motor and cradle secured there. Additional pick ups are fitted to the front bogie. Kadee couplings (with the tails snipped off) couple the cars together.

 

The underframe detail still has to be fitted of course.

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Wagonmaster
Reinstating photo

[cheesysmith]

For the motor bogie you should have used one off the 2bil/hal etc. The SR units Hornby made have the correct 8'9" wheelbase and the correct 3'3" wheels, and if you hunt around can be had cheaper than the 153 motor bogie.

[Wagonmaster]

15 hours ago, cheesysmith said:

For the motor bogie you should have used one off the 2bil/hal etc. The SR units Hornby made have the correct 8'9" wheelbase and the correct 3'3" wheels, and if you hunt around can be had cheaper than the 153 motor bogie.

 

Thanks for that, good point. However, the bogie sideframes are the DC Kits ones and they are wrongly made to 8ft 6in. So by using a 2BIL/HAP bogie I would have a problem with the wheels not lining up to the axleboxes! Gresley motor bogie wheels are 3ft 3in as you say, whereas the trailer bogies are 3ft 6in.  In both cases of wheelbase and diameter, we are talking 1mm difference. With the wheels partially hidden behind the sideframes, it is hardly noticeable. It is a compromise I'm willing to accept.

 

However, thanks for the pointer on this as I have a Southern Pride AM4/Class 304 to build. I'll check the SPM sideframes as they may have made these to the correct 8ft 9in. If they have, I'll follow your suggestion.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Wagpnmaster
Typo

[cheesysmith]

I'm not sure, but will have to check, but I think it is the other way round lol. The DC kits are the right 8'9" but the SP are 8'6". 

 

Having built a self powered motor bogie using the DC kits side and a N20 gearmotor, the extra 1mm between the axles was noticeable lol.

 

Check Clive's Sheffield exchange thread for photos.

 

Edit- just checked the SP website and they recommend 34mm black beetle bogies, 1mm short.

Edited March 25, 2021 by cheesysmith
SP info

[cheesysmith]

Must add, why am I pointing out the odd 1mm? Like you say unless you are trying to make a self contained motor bogie like me the 1mm makes no difference. As to the wheels, I used Bachmann 12.6 mm disc wheels, to represent the 3'3" wheels in worn condition .

[Wagonmaster]

Thanks for those two posts Cheesysmith. I knew one of them was right and one wrong, obviously didn't know which one!

 

Now that is what I call 'fine scale modelling' to cater for 0.4mm of tyre wear! With my bodge builds that's too finer tolerance!

[cheesysmith]

6 hours ago, Wagpnmaster said:

Thanks for those two posts Cheesysmith. I knew one of them was right and one wrong, obviously didn't know which one!

 

Now that is what I call 'fine scale modelling' to cater for 0.4mm of tyre wear! With my bodge builds that's too finer tolerance!

 

You sir, do yourself a disservice. There is nothing wrong or bodge build about that EMU you have created. I would have no problem if my modelling was up to the standards of bodge you have there, so take credit where due.

 

 

Or, n plain English, there is nowt wrong with that bodge.

Edited March 26, 2021 by cheesysmith
Stupid tablet spell checker

[Wagonmaster]

Progress has been a bit slow on the 504's of late. They are all painted and at the transfer stage. This is where the problem is.

 

I tried using Fox Transfers yellow lining. The 0.75mm line at waist level doesn't sit well across the moulded detail of the Replica Railways body, mainly the door knobs, hand grabs and bump stops. I've tried using some MicroSol, but that hasn't helped. Anybody got any ideas?