Start to finish proceedure for conveying goods in the 50s/60s/70s

[Rods_of_Revolution]

This is a rather a broad question, but I'm interested to know how a customer would go about arranging for the conveyence of their goods and how BR would go about accomodating such a request.

 

For example:

 

Joe Bloggs of Calne makes agricultural equipment. He has five trailers which need to go to a customer Scotland. Does he call his local station and ask them? Does he call someone else in BR? What information would he need to give them about the load? Would BR decide the best station to deliver the trailers to in Scotland? How would the local station know which wagons they needed and how would they request the wagons? Or would someone higher up send the appropriate wagons to the local station with paperwork telling the station staff what those wagons were for? Was there a book which said which wagons could be used for which load and was it left to the local station to decide how things should be loaded? If Joe Bloggs' trailers would fit in a mineral wagon and the sending and receiving stations had appropriate cranes, could they be conveyed that way? Would the process differ for one off shipments and regular shipments?  How did the arrival of TOPS change the process?

 

Thanks,

 

Jack

 

 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

A maker of agricultural equipment would in practice know from past experience what kind of wagon was needed, as would his local station.  For something like this, they would need to know dimensions so they could establish whether it needed something like a lowmac or perhaps end-load it onto a flat wagon, but they would need to know it was within loading gauge for the route concerned (different lines had slightly different limits).  They would also need to know the weight so they could establish that it would be within the limits for the wagon concerned.  The load would have to be chained down or possibly roped on such wagons.  Mineral wagons would not normally be used for this type of goods, though something small like wheelbarrows might be loaded in an open wagon.   Don't forget the such wagons could be shunted roughly in a hump yard and loose coupled wagons could take quite a jolting on starting, stopping etc.  So the load would need to be packed in such a way that it wouldn't take damage.

 

The station would requisition the wagons on notification by the customer unless they happened to have them on hand, which would perhaps be the case for goods conveyed in an ordinary van or open, but special wagons would not normally be kept empty at a wayside station.  A factory making this sort of equipment would make one-off shipments, they would be making frequent shipments albeit perhaps to a different destination each time.  For unusual loads like this, station staff would need to establish whether each destination station was suitable.  The Railway Clearing House published a "Handbook of Stations" which told you whether each station could handle general goods, coal, parcels, machines on wheels live stock etc and the capacity of the crane (if any).  The station would also have rate books which would be needed to calculate the charges for different type of load, and they would have to calculate the mileage as part of the calculation.

 

 

[Rods_of_Revolution]

So Calne station would perhaps call Chippenham (the junction station with a reasonable yard) and ask for five LOWFITs. Chippenham may send four LOWFITs and a CONFLAT, if that's what they had in the yard at time? If Chippenham didn't have suitable wagons, would Chippenham call Bristol (biggest yard) and ask them?

 

Thank you for mentioning the Handbook of Stations. A quick Google, and I see there is a facsimile of such a handbook from 1904, so I think I'll purchase a copy, as it'll make for interesting reading.

 

I see the Barrowmore Group have some useful documents here regarding the loading and dispatch of wagons.

 

A slightly tangental question, if they were end loading multiple flat wagons using a ramp, would they put boards between the wagons and load them at once, or would they position each wagon individually for loading directly from the ramp?

 

All the best,

 

Jack

[Steamport Southport]

You know that some wagons had strange names such as TOAD, MINK, MACAW, LORIOT, CONFLAT, etc.

 

I think the system started on the GWR.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_telegraphic_codes

 

These were so the local station or goods yard could ask for them to be sent when they needed them. All this was done by telegraph at the time. The strange names was so they wouldn't be confused for something else.

 

When it went to telephones they kept the same method and still generally do today even though they now have TOPS, especially with the Departmental wagons which I think still use the fish names.

 

They wouldn't be using a CONFLAT instead of a LOWFIT though. It was a special vehicle and XP rated. They would just wait until something suitable was available. You are probably talking about a few hours rather than days if needed.

 

 

Jason

[Michael Hodgson]

I have a copy of the 1904 book - it's quite heavy at 600 pages and lists a lot of private sidings as well as stations - factories might often do their own loading or unloading.

 

The GWR (and probably others ) produced some good illustrated wagon loading booklets concentrating on  safety - how to stack timber overhanging from one wagon to the next,  how to load large bales or sacks, or how to get the maximum number of pit props into a mineral wagon, that sort of thing.

 

BR perpetuated the idea with the series on that Barrowmore link.

[BernardTPM]

This might be of interest.

[Rivercider]

To go with the film linked above by Bernard here is the way it worked under the TOPS system

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-using-tops-1978-online

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

For a regular customer there would be usually two different ways of dealing with this.  they would either call their local goods station or their regular BR Sales rep (yes BR had such people).  Whoever they contacted would need to know the dimensions of what was being offered, particularly the height and overall width and the matter would then be referred to a Loads Inspector to ascertain which sort of vehce should be ordered although if it was a regular traffic it would only be a matter of using the same tyoe of wagons as previously.  The local station, or the sales rep would also obtain a rate for the traffic and let the customer know the cost before concluding the arrnhgements

 

The local goods station would be told (or know from past experience) which type of vehicles to order and would only need to know the date of loading in order to get the vehicles for that date.  Some types of  vehicle would be ordered through the normal daily Rolling Stock Return ordering process but more specialised vehicles would have to be ordered specially and. well in advance to make sure they would be available on the required date.  

 

All going well the wagons would arrive on the required day and in all probability - depending on the nature and dimension of the trailers - a Loads Inspector would attend to make sure the trailers were correctly loaded and were in gauge.  My Loads Inspector (in later years - he was he last one left on the WR by then) always used one of  his measuring sticks to check that everything was properly in gauge before the wagons were released from the loading point.   Loading gauges were really only useful for checking maximum height and width at high level.

 

All through this we are assuming the trailers could be readily loaded in gauge but trailers come in all sorts of sizes so the type of wagon used would also vary.  If the trailers were out-of-gauge then a transit would have to be specially arranged for them to suit whatever out-of-gauge restrictions their dimensions caused.   Generally these would be unlikely to be a problem and it might just be necessary for minimal restrictions to be applied but these conditions had to be advised out, in writing, for every train the trailers would travel on and thh wagons would not be allowed to move on those trains unless the transit conditions had been published.  and don't forget for a trip to Scotland teh gauging requirements would be different on various parts of teh route so would have to have been checked and agreed for each section in advance before the load could be accepted.

 

So small tralier on a Lowfit = very simple job.  Large trailer on a specialised wagon = a much more complex job (and the rate charged would, to some extent take that into account although the basis of rate calculation changed over the years).    Trailers aren't as it happens a good example as they tended to be made relatively locally but more specialised towed items such as muck spreaders were shifted over much longer distances.

[SED Freightman]

On 06/03/2021 at 21:25, Rods_of_Revolution said:

 

A slightly tangental question, if they were end loading multiple flat wagons using a ramp, would they put boards between the wagons and load them at once, or would they position each wagon individually for loading directly from the ramp?

As always it depends on a number of factors.  At smaller stations the end loading dock was often only on a short siding, so only one or two wagons could be positioned for loading at a time.  If there was no loco available for a turnover shunt then it may be necessary to wait for the next visit of the local goods train to remove the loaded wagons and replace them with more empties.  Meanwhile the loaded wagons could either be forwarded once ready or held in another siding until the whole consignment was ready to go.  If the wagons required examination by a loading inspector or needed to be forwarded as an exceptional load then it is likely that they would be held back until all could be examined and forwarded in one go.  Another consideration would be whether the trailers could be manhandled along a raft of wagons during loading or whether they they needed to be backed on by some type of vehicle, in the case of the latter it may be too difficult to reverse the trailers along more than one or two wagons.  If more than one wagon was to be loaded at once then bridging plates would need to be placed between each wagon unless they were designed for end loading in which case they may be equipped with drop down ends to act as bridging plates.  Most end loading docks were equipped with hinged bridging plates to cross the gap to the first wagon.

[Rods_of_Revolution]

On 07/03/2021 at 00:02, BernardTPM said:

This might be of interest.

 

I love these old films, it's like a different world now. It's also amazing to see the variety of goods which travelled by rail, yet often on models the goods transported are often far more limited in their scope. Thanks for sharing that link!

 

Thank you everyone else for your contributions.

 

Cheers,

 

Jack

[Rods_of_Revolution]

On 06/03/2021 at 23:13, Steamport Southport said:

They wouldn't be using a CONFLAT instead of a LOWFIT though. It was a special vehicle and XP rated. They would just wait until something suitable was available. You are probably talking about a few hours rather than days if needed.

 

I've seen photos of farm machinery regularly being moved on CONFLATs on the Malmesbury branch, as well as Holborn Compressors on CONFLATs on the Roskear branch. Perhaps it was a rare occurance and it's just chance that the two prototypes I'm researching for my 1960s rollingstock happen to be two that deviate from the norm.

 

If a CONFLAT arrived loaded with a container, but there was no container for the return trip, would it be returned empty or would they load with something else? From a business point of view it would make sense that a wagon is always loaded with something where possible.

 

All the best,

 

Jack

[Rivercider]

In the TOPS era freight wagons were controlled by the Central Wagon Authority (CWA) at Marylebone.

 

The Freight Rolling Stock (FRS) clerk for the TOPS area would make a daily TOPS input each weekday afternoon with requests for the following days loading. Each TRA (TOPS Reporting Area) would have one or more locations to which wagon could be ordered on a MI (Movement Instruction). In the Bristol TRA we had 81421 Lawrence Hill, 81609 Kingsland Road, 81921 Bridgwater, and at least one location at Avonmouth possibly 81231 Avonmouth PBA.

There were Movement Instructions set up for the wagon types that had regular loading requests, like VEAs for the ROF at Puriton. TOPS was programmed to know how long on average an empty wagon would take to arrive, and how long to be loaded, so if the ROF wanted 3 wagons a day, and it took 2 days to get there 2 x 3 = 6 empties in the pipeline.

For one-off or occasional loadings, or specialist wagons I think the  FRS clerk would probably contact the CWA directly.

For other regular traffic flows a TOPS wagon pool would be created, with a specific number of wagons allocated to it, which when released empty would pick up the empty destination. TOPS pools with a pre-assigned loading point all ended in odd numbers. One pool I remember was 0033 which was about a dozen PCAs which loaded flyash from Longannet Power Station to Blue Circle Cement factory at Westbury.

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

As always it depends on a number of factors.  At smaller stations the end loading dock was often only on a short siding, so only one or two wagons could be positioned for loading at a time.  If there was no loco available for a turnover shunt then it may be necessary to wait for the next visit of the local goods train to remove the loaded wagons and replace them with more empties.  Meanwhile the loaded wagons could either be forwarded once ready or held in another siding until the whole consignment was ready to go.  If the wagons required examination by a loading inspector or needed to be forwarded as an exceptional load then it is likely that they would be held back until all could be examined and forwarded in one go.  Another consideration would be whether the trailers could be manhandled along a raft of wagons during loading or whether they they needed to be backed on by some type of vehicle, in the case of the latter it may be too difficult to reverse the trailers along more than one or two wagons.  If more than one wagon was to be loaded at once then bridging plates would need to be placed between each wagon unless they were designed for end loading in which case they may be equipped with drop down ends to act as bridging plates.  Most end loading docks were equipped with hinged bridging plates to cross the gap to the first wagon.

They could also possibly be loaded with a crane - including an SD Freightlifter.  At one depot where i worked for a while in the 1960s there was no end loading dock (it was some way off at the station and would involve two different pilot locos to get a wagon from the freight depot to the end dock) so a Freightlifter was used to load or unload small vehicles.  iN my experience with towed wheeled items - mainly agricultural machinery - side unloading was just as easy as end unloading even with quite large machines.  

 

It might well have been before River Cider got there but at Westbury in the 1970s we had regular flows of towed agricultural vehicles coming in from Germany and they were all side unloaded, with no problems.  Similarly Motorail loading and unloading at Reading was done via the side using a converted Plate wagon as a sort of 'translator' vehicle.

[soony]

Worth a purchase for the pics

 

https://shop.kelsey.co.uk/product/MTG/moving-the-goods-1-serving-the-community

[KeithMacdonald]

32 minutes ago, soony said:

Worth a purchase for the pics

https://shop.kelsey.co.uk/product/MTG/moving-the-goods-1-serving-the-community

 

= Out of Stock

[C126]

Of only peripheral interest to this query, I have been waiting for an opportunity to post the following letter-head.  This is the first time I have come across a section, "Goods consigned by rail should be addressed:-- Forest Products Research Laboratory Private Siding, Princes Risborough, Bucks."

 

 

I assume this was to be used on consignment notices, wagon labels, etc.  If anyone else has other examples, I would be interested.

Edited March 8, 2021 by C126
Typo.

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

They could also possibly be loaded with a crane - including an SD Freightlifter.  At one depot where i worked for a while in the 1960s there was no end loading dock (it was some way off at the station and would involve two different pilot locos to get a wagon from the freight depot to the end dock) so a Freightlifter was used to load or unload small vehicles.  iN my experience with towed wheeled items - mainly agricultural machinery - side unloading was just as easy as end unloading even with quite large machines.  

 

It might well have been before River Cider got there but at Westbury in the 1970s we had regular flows of towed agricultural vehicles coming in from Germany and they were all side unloaded, with no problems.  Similarly Motorail loading and unloading at Reading was done via the side using a converted Plate wagon as a sort of 'translator' vehicle.

It would seem that cranes were quite often used; there was a flow of second-hand tractors from Cambridge to Fishguard/ Holyhead loaded on Borails (Paul Shannon has a photo in one of his books), whilst I have seen a photo of an ex-LNER 'Dimple' with a tractor loaded in it. That could only have got there by crane.

[NorthEndCab]

This website is quite comprehensive: 

 

https://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/7-fops/007-index.htm

[C126]

I hope I will be forgiven for posting this question here, instead of a new thread, but could someone please tell me the names of staff in the local goods yards?  I am more interested in the 1970's-1980's, but all information gratefully received.

 

Inspired by @Rivercider 's B.F.I. T.O.P.S. film (above), I have composed a list of figures to buy for my goods yard, and am not sure how many staff to allocate and what they would be called.  "Yard Master" was for marshalling yards, I think; what was the manager in charge of a goods yard called?   Would he stay in the office and have a Clerk to supervise the wagons?  What are the names of the men un-/loading wagons ("Stevedore", but this is for docks)?

 

I am modelling a little yard of four sidings, including a coal-merchant and an agricultural warehouse, but two for 'general merchandise', with the steam-age goods shed demolished.  Thanks as always for giving this your consideration.

[SED Freightman]

5 hours ago, C126 said:

I hope I will be forgiven for posting this question here, instead of a new thread, but could someone please tell me the names of staff in the local goods yards?  I am more interested in the 1970's-1980's, but all information gratefully received.

 

Inspired by @Rivercider 's B.F.I. T.O.P.S. film (above), I have composed a list of figures to buy for my goods yard, and am not sure how many staff to allocate and what they would be called.  "Yard Master" was for marshalling yards, I think; what was the manager in charge of a goods yard called?   Would he stay in the office and have a Clerk to supervise the wagons?  What are the names of the men un-/loading wagons ("Stevedore", but this is for docks)?

 

I am modelling a little yard of four sidings, including a coal-merchant and an agricultural warehouse, but two for 'general merchandise', with the steam-age goods shed demolished.  Thanks as always for giving this your consideration.

A small yard as you describe is very unlikely to have had its own manager by the early 1980's, on the South Eastern Division I think only Bricklayers Arms and Hither Green Continental Depot had dedicated managers, all other freight depots and sidings came under the control of the local Station Manager, although at the busier locations they may have had an Assistant Station Manager or Freight Assistant with specific responsibilty for keeping an eye on things. A handful of locations employed a Freight Clerk or two (eg.Plumstead, Rochester, Ashford, Dover) who would deal with the paperwork for their own yard and other local sidings or unstaffed yards.  Any railway staff  dealing with loading and unloading would be in the grades of Railman or Leading Railman, they could also undertake shunting duties and may be trained (and sometimes very skilled) in the loading and securing of particular types of traffic.  Any unusual loads to be handled would probably see a visit from either the Divisional Loading Inspector or Terminals Inspector to provide guidance and assistance whilst the SED also had a couple of Mobile Freight Gangs who could be called upon to assist with short term or ad-hoc movements from locations that were normally unstaffed, eg. loading nuclear flasks at Dungeness or occasional invalid carriages at Tonbridge.

 

The term Yard Master sounds like an Americanism, so probably arrived with the advent of EWS.

[Compound2632]

The OP's date range covers a period of change, so there needs to be a clear indication of when practices did change. In the 50s, as far as I can work out, goods traffic was being dealt with in the same way it had been since time immemorial*; those BR documents on the Barrowmore site represent a century of accumulated wisdom and best practice. By the 1970s, with the widespread closure of small goods yards, the scene was very different. The key turning-point was the Transport Act 1962's removal of the common carrier obligation. This was the point at which the railways ceased to be viewed as a monopoly to be regulated for the public benefit, which had been the principle underlying all previous railway legislation.

 

*Generally taken to be 1889.

[C126]

9 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

A small yard as you describe is very unlikely to have had its own manager by the early 1980's, on the South Eastern Division I think only Bricklayers Arms and Hither Green Continental Depot had dedicated managers, all other freight depots and sidings came under the control of the local Station Manager, although at the busier locations they may have had an Assistant Station Manager or Freight Assistant with specific responsibilty for keeping an eye on things. A handful of locations employed a Freight Clerk or two (eg.Plumstead, Rochester, Ashford, Dover) who would deal with the paperwork for their own yard and other local sidings or unstaffed yards.  Any railway staff  dealing with loading and unloading would be in the grades of Railman or Leading Railman, they could also undertake shunting duties and may be trained (and sometimes very skilled) in the loading and securing of particular types of traffic.  Any unusual loads to be handled would probably see a visit from either the Divisional Loading Inspector or Terminals Inspector to provide guidance and assistance whilst the SED also had a couple of Mobile Freight Gangs who could be called upon to assist with short term or ad-hoc movements from locations that were normally unstaffed, eg. loading nuclear flasks at Dungeness or occasional invalid carriages at Tonbridge.

 

The term Yard Master sounds like an Americanism, so probably arrived with the advent of EWS.

 

This is just the information I need, and hope will be useful to many others.  The day-to-day administration of such yards in later B.R. times is difficult to discern from the B.T.F. films, etc.  Now I can plan my purchasing of figures with more confidence.  Many thanks.

[F-UnitMad]

On 08/03/2021 at 09:09, Rods_of_Revolution said:

 

I love these old films, it's like a different world now. It's also amazing to see the variety of goods which travelled by rail, yet often on models the goods transported are often far more limited in their scope. 

As alluded to in a later post, up to the 1960s the railway was a 'common carrier' and had to accept whatever traffic it was offered, even if it ran at a loss. But yes, almost anything and everything went on the rails, often with a short road journey at either end too.

It's the 'olden days' equivalent of the "why are there so many lorries on the roads?" question today.

[Compound2632]

... but remember that the films are probably picking out the more unusual consignments to demonstrate that range, giving a distorted view. A model that depicts loads that are limited to the more common goods will be much more realistic than one that has all these unusual loads. Also, unless one is making a static model of a goods yard, most open wagon loads apart from minerals will be sheeted and so hidden from view. Even sawn timber:

 

 

[Reading Vastern Road Yard c. 1905.]

Edited March 17, 2021 by Compound2632

[HillsideDepot]

58 minutes ago, C126 said:

 

This is just the information I need, and hope will be useful to many others.  The day-to-day administration of such yards in later B.R. times is difficult to discern from the B.T.F. films, etc.  Now I can plan my purchasing of figures with more confidence.  Many thanks.

 

@Riverciderhelped me with likely staffing levels for my 1970's Mortimore's Yard layout when I was adding a staff / office building, and its great to see someone else researching the same sort of detail.

When thinking of the figures, remember one or two might spend most of their day indoors, so do you an office for them to work in? Then, what about a mess room, probably combined with a locker room? It wouldn't be lavish, but probably have an age blackened kettle on a permanently lit stove or, if modernised (a Portacabin type building added when the goods shed was demolished?), they might be lucky enough to have a two ring Baby Belling electric cooker.

 

Also, think about who the staff might get to work. Most would live locally, perhaps walking or cycling to work. Few would have a car, but various means of transport would be parked near (or possibly leaning against) the main building. A yellow livered small BR van (Bedford HA, Morris Marina etc) could be a sign that the local manager is visiting, or perhaps someone from the Carriage & Wagon department making a minor repair to get a defective wagon mobile again or, as in the original question, someone supervising the loading of Joe Bloggs of Calne's agricultural equipment.

 

Its all part of the start to finish procedure for conveying goods.