Hornby Announce L&MR 0-4-2 "Lion"?

[adb968008]

Perhaps Hornby heard the roar of the lion, but picked the wrong beast...

 

 

 

I couldn't really imagine anyone taking on LMR Lion, given recent historical behaviour, and if they were, I doubt anyone would reveal it until it was too late for big H to respond.

 

I could certainly imagine diversionary tactics by undercover spies... after all the companies might be competitors, but the various researchers are all well known to each other.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[Hilux5972]

Rapido may have exclusive rights to Thunderbolt stuff, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they will release the loco as LMR Lion. It may just be solely Thunderbolt stuff. 

[MGR Hooper!]

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Hornby are developing a rather unpleasant reputation for themselves by repeatedly attempting to gazump other manufacturers product releases.

 

 

A reputation that's taking a beating because people who know very little about the matter make a big deal of it.... 

 

Hornby gave us Rocket, it was popular. It was well documented that they were working on the additional rolling stock alongside Rocket and it's coaches. Yet Hornby received the brunt of the moaning for apparently copying RoS. It was quite obvious that RoS was trying to piggy back on Hornby's new found success. 

 

With Rocket being so successful, demand for more Era 1 models went up and it's quite clear that Hornby would expand their range if necessary. 

 

I'm sorry, but it seems like Rapido (if the 1st of April date is a serious one) is trying to piggy back on Hornby's success here. And once again it was quite obvious that Hornby would expand a range that was successful. That being said, it's an open market. Anyone can make anything they want. 

[johnd]

10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The only thing it's ever hauled in preservation is the L&M coaches.

 

Usually only the third class one as they never normally allowed the First to leave Liverpool Museum when it was let out during the two spells in the 1980s.

 

Now hidden from view in a lock up on the Dock Road at Juniper Street along with Cecil Raikes and the MD&HB Avonside 0-6-0ST.   

 

 

Jason

 

i agree with reality which your talking about, but this is a Model/toy train and recreating the Titfield thunderbolt which I think from memory was filmed/released  in 1953  and to which there will be a large number of people  who will relate to it.  The marketing opportunity could quite easily be a boxed set containing Lion and a 14xx along with rolling stock etc.    

 

Hornby will be wanting this model as they do all of them to make money so that they can stay in business ! 

Edited March 10, 2021 by johnd

[johnd]

Anybody else noticed the impending announcement on 1st April at 12.00 mid day by Rapido !, might well have some bearing on this thread.  

[PaulRhB]

 

 

[frobisher]

7 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Rapido may have exclusive rights to Thunderbolt stuff, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they will release the loco as LMR Lion. It may just be solely Thunderbolt stuff. 

 

The press release does say they will be releasing the items in authentic liveries as well.

[frobisher]

15 minutes ago, johnd said:

Anybody else noticed the impending announcement on 1st April at 12.00 mid day by Rapido !, might well have some bearing on this thread.  

 

Either way, it's epically well played trolling of Hornby.  I'd prefer the option with product naturally (which is what I suspect it is).

 

As I see it, Hornby's hand was forced over the discovery of Rapido's intentions, and Rapido's hand was then similarly forced into a slightly earlier than intended pre-announcement of what I suspect was always intended to drop out of the blue on April 1st (to play the "it's a April Fool, actually no it's not" joke thing).

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, johnd said:

 

i agree with reality which your talking about, but this is a Model/toy train and recreating the Titfield thunderbolt which I think from memory was filmed/released  in 1953  and to which there will be a large number of people  who will relate to it.  The marketing opportunity could quite easily be a boxed set containing Lion and a 14xx along with rolling stock etc.    

 

Hornby will be wanting this model as they do all of them to make money so that they can stay in business ! 

 

However they aren't making The Titfield Thunderbolt. It's only mentioned in passing in the Facebook post.

 

If another thread is correct they don't have the rights to it.

 

Surely they are going to make it as Lion which will need the couplings to fit with the existing L&MR coaches. So a bit pointless fitting it with NEM couplings.

 

 

 

Also worth bearing in mind that Liverpool Museums is part of the National Museums Group (whatever they are called now) and any rights you need for making anything in the NRM will also apply.

 

When Oxford made a model of the preserved Ford Anglia it had to be licensed.

 

https://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/products/ford-anglia-car-lime-green-105e-saloon-liverpool-museum-sp046?_pos=17&_sid=e405a63fb&_ss=r

 

 

Jason

[Harlequin]

7 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

A reputation that's taking a beating because people who know very little about the matter make a big deal of it.... 

 

Hornby gave us Rocket, it was popular. It was well documented that they were working on the additional rolling stock alongside Rocket and it's coaches. Yet Hornby received the brunt of the moaning for apparently copying RoS. It was quite obvious that RoS was trying to piggy back on Hornby's new found success. 

 

With Rocket being so successful, demand for more Era 1 models went up and it's quite clear that Hornby would expand their range if necessary. 

 

I'm sorry, but it seems like Rapido (if the 1st of April date is a serious one) is trying to piggy back on Hornby's success here. And once again it was quite obvious that Hornby would expand a range that was successful. That being said, it's an open market. Anyone can make anything they want. 

 

I know you often defend Hornby. (Do you have inside knowledge?)

 

I'm just looking at what's going on from the outside, from the perspective of a potential customer, and what I see is Hornby trying to gain or hold onto market share in a way that appears to be very aggressive.

 

All the manufacturers operating in this area are picking from a limited pool of commercial opportunities so there's bound to be some overlap between them - i.e. a lot of parallel development behind the scenes. But Hornby seem to be shouting, "Get off my land", as soon as there's a hint of anyone else going public with a competing product. And we've seen them rush products to market to beat the competition. Both those things are fair enough for any company in a competitive marketplace but because Hornby are the largest player they do it most often and so it looks like a very dog-in-the-manger attitude.

 

All of this, and what we outsiders know of some of their dealings with retailers, makes me and I suggest many other customers feel uncomfortable about the way they operate.

 

Appears, Looks, Feels: It's all about the presentation - the perception that they are creating by their own actions...

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Harlequin

[Legend]

I think once again Hornby just too slow on the uptake .  Had they announced this on 5th of January everyone would have been rejoicing , but they left Lion out of the announcement , probably thinking that they'd carved a niche for themselves in Era 1 that no one else would enter .  Lets face it , most of us thought that Lion would be announced after the success of Rocket . The fact that it wasn't probably was an unintentional invite to others to enter. So presumably having been tipped off in some way another manufacturer was sniffing about , they've had to rush out an announcement  and are possibly at an early stage with model. So sluggish marketing means they've been caught with their pants down. 

 

The lack of license to do Lion as Thunderbolt will no doubt be a blow , but they haven't actually announced that have they . They are doing Lion which will complement the existing range of L&MR stock .  I think in this case its Hornby that has the largest chance of potential sales through their distributor network to the general public. They've all heard of Hornby , nobodies heard of Rapido 

 

Which brings us to Rapido . Strange choice for them I think , but then they have a history of making eccentric models , like Brummie buses , which really must have limited appeal . This appears to be following in the same ground . Presumably they've researched it and concluded they can make money on a production batch sold as Titfield sets . But I think I'm correct in saying you can only buy direct or maybe through Rails . They don't have widespread coverage  to the general market . So very niche. 

 

To be honest what I think is a crying shame is we have this level of duplication on Lion or efforts being made on frankly weird choices like most of the KR range Leader, The Fell , Bellerophon  when mainstream things like an OO Class 313/314 are neglected . Where would you make more money Rapido ?  On a very limited prodn batch of Titfield Thunderbolts or several runs of multi-coloured emus 

[Legend]

Its only an April fool if its on 1st April. Never heard of a March 9th fool 

[Harlequin]

6 minutes ago, Legend said:

To be honest what I think is a crying shame is we have this level of duplication on Lion or efforts being made on frankly weird choices like most of the KR range Leader, The Fell , Bellerophon  when mainstream things like an OO Class 313/314 are neglected . Where would you make more money Rapido ?  On a very limited prodn batch of Titfield Thunderbolts or several runs of multi-coloured emus 

 

Maybe there should be a sort of "Railway Model Clearing House" which manages the interactions between companies. Companies could declare their plans in confidence to the Clearing House and it would give out advisory information when those plans are in conflict. It wouldn't stop companies competing if they really wanted to but would give them early warning to avoid wasted effort and avoid the public, "I got there first", claims.

 

[Legend]

1 minute ago, Harlequin said:

 

Maybe there should be a sort of "Railway Model Clearing House" which manages the interactions between companies. Companies could declare their plans in confidence to the Clearing House and it would give out advisory information when those plans are in conflict. It wouldn't stop companies competing if they really wanted to but would give them early warning to avoid wasted effort and avoid the public, "I got there first", claims.

 

 

Wouldnt work Phil . Folk would say I'm doing several models to grab market share and warn others off .  They might eventually appear but it could be years  (94XX springs to mind as one of the longest periods between announcement and release)

[phil gollin]

.

 

1:   I agree with Steamport Southport about the couplings  -  I  ASSUME  that Rapido will need to sort out with Hornby about whether they can use the Rocket style coupling, or else come up with an equivalent free from copyright ?

 

2:  IF people would remember, "back in the day" (!)  -  April Fools were only allowable up to mid-day on the 1st of April.   Some people here (including hopefully Rapido) have remembered that, many seem to have forgotten.

 

3:  As a selfish consumer, unless one of the manufacturers falls out the present leaves me in a quandary.  Which one will be released first, and which one will be better detailed / more "accurate" ?   At least with Hornby we will need to get our pre-orders in early, or possibly lose out, that may also apply to Rapido ???   I would probably go for the better detailed one, but when will I know ?   This will invite doubling up of orders (order one from each) and then cancelling the loser - not something I would particularly wish to do.

 

We will see.

 

.

[adb968008]

7 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Maybe there should be a sort of "Railway Model Clearing House" which manages the interactions between companies. Companies could declare their plans in confidence to the Clearing House and it would give out advisory information when those plans are in conflict. It wouldn't stop companies competing if they really wanted to but would give them early warning to avoid wasted effort and avoid the public, "I got there first", claims.

 

The researchers of the different companies are all known to each other.

its a very small gene pool.

the who is looking at what, isnt that hard to figure.

 

The sources of research are also well known, the 200 odd railways around the country, kew, nrm, doncaster, publishers, railway clubs etc.

 

you dont need a clearing house.

 

Thing is researchers research lots of ideas, i’d imagine a lot of them don’t go much further than research, and if they do, the “when” could be “whenever” too, as could the decision making not be in a researchers power.

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by adb968008

[Edwardian]

24 minutes ago, Legend said:

I think once again Hornby just too slow on the uptake .  Had they announced this on 5th of January everyone would have been rejoicing , but they left Lion out of the announcement , probably thinking that they'd carved a niche for themselves in Era 1 that no one else would enter .  Lets face it , most of us thought that Lion would be announced after the success of Rocket . The fact that it wasn't probably was an unintentional invite to others to enter. So presumably having been tipped off in some way another manufacturer was sniffing about , they've had to rush out an announcement  and are possibly at an early stage with model. So sluggish marketing means they've been caught with their pants down. 

 

The lack of license to do Lion as Thunderbolt will no doubt be a blow , but they haven't actually announced that have they . They are doing Lion which will complement the existing range of L&MR stock .  I think in this case its Hornby that has the largest chance of potential sales through their distributor network to the general public. They've all heard of Hornby , nobodies heard of Rapido 

 

Which brings us to Rapido . Strange choice for them I think , but then they have a history of making eccentric models , like Brummie buses , which really must have limited appeal . This appears to be following in the same ground . Presumably they've researched it and concluded they can make money on a production batch sold as Titfield sets . But I think I'm correct in saying you can only buy direct or maybe through Rails . They don't have widespread coverage  to the general market . So very niche. 

 

To be honest what I think is a crying shame is we have this level of duplication on Lion or efforts being made on frankly weird choices like most of the KR range Leader, The Fell , Bellerophon  when mainstream things like an OO Class 313/314 are neglected . Where would you make more money Rapido ?  On a very limited prodn batch of Titfield Thunderbolts or several runs of multi-coloured emus 

 

More mainstream? Well, people seem to like like novelty (may be literally in the case of the Liverpool and Manchester), and will buy pretty and rare things regardless of whether they fit with what they're modelling.  And why not?

 

I think the steel door version of the Rails SE&CR van proved the most popular, even though only two wagons were fitted with these doors and for an uncertain duration. 

 

Hornby here showed what it can do when it stops just copying retailer commissions for spite. Here what Hornby did was sensible and good. It kicked off our interest with a commemoration of its own Triang Rocket set from days of yore; irresistible to the mind of the collector, so not a great risk.

 

But, rather than leave it at that, most commendably in my view, Hornby built on the interest it had sparked in this subject to announce follow-on products. Of course, no one knew that it would do so, and it has lead to some duplication of effort. Rather than leave the centenary release as a one off, as many manufacturers traditionally would, Hornby has set out to build the range, which is welcome. Better to have a range of compatible models, rather than a one off.   At the same time, Hornby must restrain its recent megalomaniacal tendencies; it does not own the pre-1850 railway scene, or 'Era 1', if you prefer that inane and meaningless designation.  

 

Oh, and I have no idea what a 'Class 313/314' may be. Please don't tell me; ignorance is a delicate bloom that withers at the touch.

[adb968008]

19 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

1:   I agree with Steamport Southport about the couplings  -  I  ASSUME  that Rapido will need to sort out with Hornby about whether they can use the Rocket style coupling, or else come up with an equivalent free from copyright ?

 

2:  IF people would remember, "back in the day" (!)  -  April Fools were only allowable up to mid-day on the 1st of April.   Some people here (including hopefully Rapido) have remembered that, many seem to have forgotten.

 

3:  As a selfish consumer, unless one of the manufacturers falls out the present leaves me in a quandary.  Which one will be released first, and which one will be better detailed / more "accurate" ?   At least with Hornby we will need to get our pre-orders in early, or possibly lose out, that may also apply to Rapido ???   I would probably go for the better detailed one, but when will I know ?   This will invite doubling up of orders (order one from each) and then cancelling the loser - not something I would particularly wish to do.

 

We will see.

 

.

The assumption is Rapido are doing Lion.

 

They could be doing a 14xx, coach, wagon, original Bulleid, traction engine and a pearce and crump bus.

 

Two Lions is wasteful

 

Hornby chosing not to do, or missing out on the Titfield anniversary was shame... if they missed out on it, they must have known it was coming elsewhere, if they chose not to do it.. well thats their choice... they did do R3186 for the 60th anniversary, lets face it, nothings changed in the original film or the tooling since then..so commercially it might offer nothing new.

 

one thing is for sure, with Rapido, Hornby wont need to compromise on price, similarly that old 4 wheeler on a low mac wont be coming back.

 

but it seems imaginary railways is affecting every manufacturer.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by adb968008

[BMacdermott]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

The researchers of the different companies are all known to each other.

its a very small gene pool.

the who is looking at what, isnt that hard to figure.

 

The sources of research are also well known, the 200 odd railways around the country, kew, nrm, doncaster, publishers, railway clubs etc.

 

you dont need a clearing house.

 

Thing is researchers research lots of ideas, i’d imagine a lot of them don’t go much further than research, and if they do, the “when” could be “whenever” too, as could the decision making not be in a researchers power.

 

Hello adb968008 (and everyone)

 

This makes a very refreshing change...it used to be The 00 Wishlist Poll Team that got blamed for every duplication!

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Wishlist Poll Team)

[Hroth]

Whoever does this, I hope that it gets supplied with an additional set of nameplates , so you can buy 2 locomotives and rename the second "Tiger".

 

No doubt one of the usual nameplate suppliers would be able to supply a "Thunderbolt" set too...

 

Passing onto other early Liverpool and Manchester locos, "Planet" would have been useful as a step from "Rocket", though its not much bigger than "Rocket", as it could definitely use the rolling stock currently in production. The Patentee class would make more sense as a passenger loco, perhaps Hornby should consider announcing that too...

[johnd]

45 minutes ago, Legend said:

Its only an April fool if its on 1st April. Never heard of a March 9th fool 

 

And then if its only BEFORE 12.00  !

[adb968008]

7 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello adb968008 (and everyone)

 

This makes a very refreshing change...it used to be The 00 Wishlist Poll Team that got blamed for every duplication!

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Wishlist Poll Team)

 

Way things are going, I do think you may need to add a “most requested fake” category for the wishlist next year though.... BR Standard 2-8-2 would be my first choice GWR 9351 class 2-6-0 next.. and for fake liveries a GCR liveried Thompson A1, GWR Princess, and an LMS Castle...

 

never would have thought the hobby would end up here.

Edited March 10, 2021 by adb968008

[Hroth]

14 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

and an LMS Castle...

 

I once got a birthday card with an illustration of an  LMS liveried Castle, travelling through Sydney Gardens...

 

[Steamport Southport]

15 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Whoever does this, I hope that it gets supplied with an additional set of nameplates , so you can buy 2 locomotives and rename the second "Tiger".

 

No doubt one of the usual nameplate suppliers would be able to supply a "Thunderbolt" set too...

 

Passing onto other early Liverpool and Manchester locos, "Planet" would have been useful as a step from "Rocket", though its not much bigger than "Rocket", as it could definitely use the rolling stock currently in production. The Patentee class would make more sense as a passenger loco, perhaps Hornby should consider announcing that too...

 

Already available.

 

247 Developments do them and at least one of the others have done them in the past as they were made for the old K's Kit version.

 

 

Jason

[247 Developments]

20 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

 

No doubt one of the usual nameplate suppliers would be able to supply a "Thunderbolt" set too...

 

.

We already do Thunderbolt

IMG_20210310_101338 by brian mosby, on Flickr