Hornby Announce L&MR 0-4-2 "Lion"?

[boxbrownie]

14 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

I thought this was the Hornby Lion thread?

You must have forgotten your on RMWeb

[The Johnster]

On 07/04/2021 at 10:04, Harlequin said:

"What have Hornby ever done for us?"

For me, over the last few year, in no particular order, Peckett, 5101, Collett 57' suburbans, Southern B and BY, 42xx, Toads with separate handrails.

 

If you compare that to Bachmann, it isn't much but this is because Bachmann happen to make more of the South Wales 1950s stuff I need, and not to any brand loyalty.  Hornby, when they are good, are very very good, and when they are bad they are horrid (e.g 16ton minerals on the wrong wheelbase chassis even now, charging 2021 prices for a 1970s ex-Airfix auto trailer).  Bachmann, OTOH, are more consistently good quality while being a little more expensive, though they have their glitches, like the misshapen LMS ventilated van and their refusal to consider making any form of pannier tank without a top feed (there is a reasonable excuse in the case of the 94xx).  Nobody's perfect, but my impression is that if we are comparing Red and Blue Box as the biggest players, not that anyone apart from me is, Hornby have a higher proportion of outdated stuff, not all of which is under the Railroad banner, than Baccy, and could do with shedding some of it, but it looks as if they've overproduced some of this dross for years and have large quantities to get rid of that they thing they can still make money on.  The Jinty chassis 08 featured in a train set only a few years ago!

 

So, to recap, in the spirit of 'Life of Brian', 'all right, apart from proving that 2 rail and plastic moulding is practical for 00 scale model railways back in their Rovex days, the models mentioned above, marketing the first UK DCC system Zero 1, the first scale length mk1 coaches, the first British RTR overhead electric system, popularising the hobby amongst a demographic that couldn't afford Hornby Dublo, the first British RTR loco with cab detail (Black Princess), and  a load of other stuff I can't think of at the moment, and, of course, most importantly, Battlespace, what have Hornby ever done for us'?

[No Decorum]

You aren’t the only one comparing Hornby & Bachy. I often compare manufacturers in my head. I’d agree that Bachy is more consistently good than Hornby. To the “what has Hornby ever done for us” list, I’d add incomparable motors and remove Zero 1, the latter being something done to us rather than for us. Hornby also put a great deal of effort into installing DCC sockets into every possible model very early in DCC days (passing over the thought that many sockets had to be removed to allow space for the decoder). Since then, Hornby has fallen woefully behind in DCC provision and badly needs to get itself up to date. Hornby has also given itself a very bad knock with the Thompson A2 debacle. The estimable Mr. Kohler has invited suggestions for what we should like Hornby to produce. I find myself wondering if I want Hornby to produce my latest desire.

 

Not that Bachy is above clangers. The Halls are a case in point. I read that a Bachy rep at an exhibition said that a lot of money had been spent on them. I wonder where it went because the new ones were lacking the features we would expect today despite the price we would expect today. For all that, the Halls were still beautifully finished and ran well.

 

What of Heljan? My mind characterises Heljan as more prone to inaccuracy and at a higher price, whilst also having qualities of their own such a strength and smoothness. A heavy weight sits on Ben Jones’ shoulders. I hope he can nudge Heljan into keeping the good whilst working on the less than good aspects. So far, it seems to be working.

 

Dapol? Still a little inconsistent but very good on modern wagons. Old wagons are old tooling but at a price which acknowledges that. Dapol is very enterprising. Sometimes it doesn’t work – the A4 doesn’t seem to have been a marketing success but the GW Mogul? Provision for two speakers; a woofer and a tweeter with the sounds sent to the appropriate speaker. That’s enterprise!

[The Johnster]

I think a perennial (literally) issue with Hornby is that once a model is established in the range it seems to be very difficult to get rid of it.  It may be upgraded with new (not necessarily better, retooling may be to reduce costs, not that this prevents marketing from championing the new tooling as a desirable feature) tooling, but the original incorrect features remain.  Examples are the Jintychassis based locos, Jinty, cod 08, 8750, 2721, E2, J52, J86, which were produced for many years over several chassis and motor upgrades with the incorrect original Triang Jinty incorrect axle spacing which was incorrect for the original Jinty and 3F.  This went on over 6 decades. 

 

I believe this to be rooted in the original Rovex/Triang policy of using standard parts, so that the original Black Princess chassis block, incorrect for a scale Princess of course, was used, adapted for the 0-6-0s, for models including the 3MT tank, Hiawatha, TC prairie and baltic tanks, B12, Britannia, Winston Churchill, Hall etc.  The same thing happened with 'modern image', a mech originally designed for the EM2 turned up under the 31, 37, and 47 with the 31 sideframes.

 

There are some very old toolings in the current cataloge.  Dean Single, shorty clerestories, 16ton steel minerals on the wrong wheelbase, Railroad stuff with the pre-NEM couplings.  Of course, one must consider this against the point that Hornby, in the form of Rovex, Triang, and Triang Hornby, are our oldest RTR company in continuous production, so they've had plenty of time to build up a backlog of outdated items, and that their core market is still the original Rovex one, xmas train sets for department stores and mail order firms.  Where they have improved, and there is no doubt that they have in their best models, it is despite this culture and marketing philosophy.

 

Bachmann come at it from a different perspective which arguably shows in their products.  They are a subsidiary of a bigger concern and were never really seriously in the trainset game, though they have dipped their toes.  Their core market is 'serious' modellers who are concerned with scale and detail, as was that of Palitoy Mainline which was the range they adopted on their entry into the UK market.  They have assiduously retooled the Mainline models, greatly improving the mechs and often improving the body toolings, and the dogs in their range have minor errors unlike the perpetuated Hornby dogs. 

 

Hornby are financially under pressure, and have a management that aggressively pursues profit wherever it can.  One could not imagine Bachmann re-intoducing something like the shorty clerestories, which are useful for modifying but toys at best, complete with the separate underframes from the late 50s 9" Triang mk1s, B1 bogies, and no interiors; not just toys, but 1961 toys.  I can see why they did reintroduce these coaches, as they were selling well enough on 'Bay to show demand was there, the toolings were still available, and it was an easy and quick way to make an honest dollar.  Nothing wrong with that, but it does reveal the core thinking at management level within Hornby.   They had IMHO missed a trick here; Dean clerestories completely retooled to current standards and knocked out at about £60 a pop would have sold like hot cakes, especially with a £200+ all singing all dancing single to pull them, which would I reckon have been Bachmann's approach!

[adb968008]

Trouble with both Hornby and Bachmann, is other entrants are pushing the detail envelope a little bit further... and they are picking off the more exciting items one by one.
 

Hornby has always been slightly more at the “toy” end of the spectrum, thats where its roots are. Whilst the “toy” definitely up scaled in the 2000’s to meet the threats of Heljan and Bachmann, It seems in the face of newer “up scaled” detail threats of the 2010’s they were being eaten, so perhaps in the 2020’s what we are seeing is a retrenchment to a lesser “detailed toy” rather than a head on fight on detail... by all accounts its working, they are using price and market presence to offer a cheaper alternative in head to head fights..

 

But if the threat is invisible until its in the shop, how are they going to handle that ?

 

If someone rocked up a new Black 5, Rebuilt Bulleid, class 31 tomorrow in a wide range of variants with similar or slightly better prices.. how fast could they react and would it be too late at that point ? 

To me a Hornby Lion is an interesting rise to the challenge, especially as Rapido are looking to be a bit more reactive in their pricing, have the penchant for detail, and own their own factory.

Edited April 13, 2021 by adb968008

[Co-tr-Paul]

Is it just me ? I feel various threads are becoming  a manufacturer vs manufacturer personal thing. This  thread.is supposed to be  about the Hornby  Lion MODEL.  Don't particularly care who does what first.  Can we keep everything on topic ?? ? 

Seems to be becoming a common thing in various threads.  Let's keep the politics and whys and wherefores out and cherish the fact the model is actually being made by somebody rather than nobody. .... .

Apologies to admin but it's becoming common.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Co-tr-Paul
Add text

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Co-tr-Paul said:

This  thread.is supposed to be  about the Hornby  Lion MODEL.  Don't particularly care who does what first.  Can we keep everything on topic ?? ? 

 

Comparisons are inevitable and valid. Though as you say, the manner in which those comparisons are made can become more vigorous than rigorous. 

 

You should also make allowance for an element of lockdown cabin fever. Sometimes people just need an outlet - it's probably better for the general good that their chosen outlet is model railway manufacturers than, say, religion or politics. 

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Sometimes people just need an outlet - it's probably better for the general good that their chosen outlet is model railway manufacturers than, say, religion or politics. 

I often see little difference between the three...

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, Co-tr-Paul said:

Is it just me ? I feel various threads are becoming  a manufacturer vs manufacturer personal thing. This  thread.is supposed to be  about the Hornby  Lion MODEL.  Don't particularly care who does what first.  Can we keep everything on topic ?? ? 

Seems to be becoming a common thing in various threads.  Let's keep the politics and whys and wherefores out and cherish the fact the model is actually being made by somebody rather than nobody. .... .

Apologies to admin but it's becoming common.

There has been a red box vs blue box debate ever since red boxes and blue boxes have been made... so at least 30 years, nothing new under the sun.

 

So comparatively, your basically asking humans to not support a football team, and not to talk about other clubs ?

personally I think speculation and discussion can be healthy, and it sets a tone / expectation and consensus.. whilst it may be invisibly used or wholly ignored by a manufacturer, it does set a level to which the modelling community may want to expect or consider as a minimum standard when it does emerge.

 

As a fan of the club if someone introduced a player to the bench, wouldnt you want to know what they are capable of, history, form, what they paid for them and what the other team is doing ?

 

Many threads here are pages long, much in advance of a models release, other, just a few with low reads.. that is a good measure of healthy excitement, or disinterest in a forthcoming model.

 

Personally i’m bemused we only have 1 model of the most iconic and identifiable railway locomotives in the world, and yet 2 of its progeny that most people have never heard of. I cant help but wonder if excitement and awareness of the former is being mistranslated as general interest in the whole epoch encompassing the latter... my fear is two fighting lions means we may not see a rtr Locomotion in 2025 as a result, as I dont think this pioneer era is as big as some think.

 

You could keep it wholly, exclusively and undeniably restrained to Hornby Lion.. but all we know is they are making one, in the absence of anything of any substance at all everything is conjecture, so this would be a very quiet thread...

 

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by adb968008

[Edwardian]

13 hours ago, Co-tr-Paul said:

Let's keep the politics and whys and wherefores out

 

 

[willjam39]

Not that version please! The opera Australia version is far better!

[aaron3820]

Has there been any news on this project since April?

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, aaron3820 said:

Has there been any news on this project since April?

The simple answer is no. Hornby made the announcement prematurely when they got wind of the fact that they had been pipped to the post by another manufacturer (Rapido). Rapido obtained the rights to the Titfield Thunderbolt models which included Lion which featured in the film. The 70th anniversary of the films release is 2023 and I expect the models from both manufacturers to be released about the same time.

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

So, as far as Hornby is concerned, the Lion sleeps tonight.

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Obi-Jiff Kenobi said:

the Lion sleeps tonight.

And for the next few years most likely…..

[autocoach]

Maybe a "Lion in Winter" next or the next one after that?

[MarkSG]

Now that Rapido have announced details of their Lion, I'm wondering if we'll get an update soon from Hornby on the progress of this one.

 

Interestingly, Rapido's versions of the real Lion (as opposed to the Titfield version, which is fictitious and therefore in a class of its own) are of the loco in two different preserved liveries - the 1930 LMS celebration of the anniversary of the L&M and the 1980 Rainhill 150 celebration. Neither of those are accurate (and nor is Thunderbolt) for an in-service era 1 Lion, as the preserved (and movie prop) loco uses a tender built for the 1930 restoration, the original having long since been lost, and has undergone several other modifications over the years.

 

If Hornby are going to do a version of Lion as originally in service, therefore (which their publicity hints at), they'll need to pair it with an appropriate tender and get the shape and livery correct for the era. That's not going to be easy, given the dearth of photos and documentation of the original Lion. Although, on the other hand,  if there's no canonical source of information then all Hornby need to do is make it plausible, as nobody can prove they've got it wrong!

 

The other thing Hornby could usefully do is release their Lion in an appropriate train pack. The original Lion was a goods loco, not a passenger loco - the photos of it hauling replica carriages at the anniversary events are misleading in that respect. So, having done Rocket with a pack of matching coaches, Hornby could complement that with a pack of Lion and matching wagons. That probably makes more sense than releasing a standalone era 1 Lion with nothing appropriate for it to haul, and it creates a clear distinction between Hornby's model and Rapido's as-preserved and as-filmed versions. Although I think Hornby would have liked to do Titfield if they could, an as-built Lion will be an attractive model in its own right and one that doesn't directly compete with Rapido's model.

[Compound2632]

@MarkSG, your interesting post overlooks the plain fact that the Hornby models of Rocket and the open and closed carriages are models of the 1930 / 1979 replicas not of stock as running on the L&M in the 1930s. 

[Helmdon]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

@MarkSG, your interesting post overlooks the plain fact that the Hornby models of Rocket and the open and closed carriages are models of the 1930 / 1979 replicas not of stock as running on the L&M in the 1930s. 

or even 1830s

[MarkSG]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

@MarkSG, your interesting post overlooks the plain fact that the Hornby models of Rocket and the open and closed carriages are models of the 1930 / 1979 replicas not of stock as running on the L&M in the 1930s. 

 

That's true. But the replicas are closer to the original than they are to the preserved Rocket in its museum condition, something which is helped by the fact that we do have some useful contemporary documentation on Rocket. The replicas, and the models, are a best effort approximation rather than an accurate copy, but they are at least based on authentic and reasonably reliable sources. 

 

The problem with Lion is that we don't have anything equivalent, but we do know that the preserved Lion is substantially different to the original. So getting even a best effort approximation to the original Lion is going to be harder than it is for Rocket.

[Helmdon]

27 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

Now that Rapido have announced details of their Lion, I'm wondering if we'll get an update soon from Hornby on the progress of this one.

 

Interestingly, Rapido's versions of the real Lion (as opposed to the Titfield version, which is fictitious and therefore in a class of its own) are of the loco in two different preserved liveries - the 1930 LMS celebration of the anniversary of the L&M and the 1980 Rainhill 150 celebration. Neither of those are accurate (and nor is Thunderbolt) for an in-service era 1 Lion, as the preserved (and movie prop) loco uses a tender built for the 1930 restoration, the original having long since been lost, and has undergone several other modifications over the years.

 

If Hornby are going to do a version of Lion as originally in service, therefore (which their publicity hints at), they'll need to pair it with an appropriate tender and get the shape and livery correct for the era. That's not going to be easy, given the dearth of photos and documentation of the original Lion. Although, on the other hand,  if there's no canonical source of information then all Hornby need to do is make it plausible, as nobody can prove they've got it wrong!

 

The other thing Hornby could usefully do is release their Lion in an appropriate train pack. The original Lion was a goods loco, not a passenger loco - the photos of it hauling replica carriages at the anniversary events are misleading in that respect. So, having done Rocket with a pack of matching coaches, Hornby could complement that with a pack of Lion and matching wagons. That probably makes more sense than releasing a standalone era 1 Lion with nothing appropriate for it to haul, and it creates a clear distinction between Hornby's model and Rapido's as-preserved and as-filmed versions. Although I think Hornby would have liked to do Titfield if they could, an as-built Lion will be an attractive model in its own right and one that doesn't directly compete with Rapido's model.

 

I'm not sure Hornby (or anyone else) would be able to do an accurate as-built Lion. And doing something 'Lionish but not quite Lion as we know her now'  based on guesswork sounds a bit desperate frankly.

 

If Hornby have really hinted that their Lion is going to be 'as originally in service' then I might get the popcorn ready now - they'll have either made a huge contribution to the body of scholarship on early locomotives, or not. 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Helmdon said:

or even 1830s

 

Doh! Typo... 

[rovex]

2 hours ago, Helmdon said:

 

I'm not sure Hornby (or anyone else) would be able to do an accurate as-built Lion. And doing something 'Lionish but not quite Lion as we know her now'  based on guesswork sounds a bit desperate frankly.

 

If Hornby have really hinted that their Lion is going to be 'as originally in service' then I might get the popcorn ready now - they'll have either made a huge contribution to the body of scholarship on early locomotives, or not. 

 

Presumably as in service on the Titfield branch

[PhilJ W]

On 16/12/2021 at 14:28, rovex said:

 

Presumably as in service on the Titfield branch

I notice that in the Hornby ad they mention the locomotive being used in the 30's, 50's and 70's. No mention of the Titfield Thunderbolt.

Edited December 22, 2021 by PhilJ W

[adb968008]

Imo they’d be better giving it up and going for Locomotion No1, given how long delays are, and 2025 being the SDR bi-centennial anniversary…though they’ve been beaten on the Chaldron too.

 

To me, Lion is niche, the joe on the high st doesn't know it, its not Rocket. So the buyer is one who appreciates it, and Rapido may win opinion there.