Hornby Announce L&MR 0-4-2 "Lion"?

[Steamport Southport]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

Way things are going, I do think you may need to add a “most requested fake” category for the wishlist next year though.... BR Standard 2-8-2 would be my first choice GWR 9351 class 2-6-0 next.. and for fake liveries a GCR liveried Thompson A1, GWR Princess, and an LMS Castle...

 

never would have thought the hobby would end up here.

 

How can 9351 be a fake if it exists?

 

A bit like calling a Class 57 a fake. Or Royal Scot. It's a rebuild.

 

 

Jason

[Caley 439]

Just now, Hroth said:

 

Passing onto other early Liverpool and Manchester locos, "Planet" would have been useful as a step from "Rocket", though its not much bigger than "Rocket", as it could definitely use the rolling stock currently in production. The Patentee class would make more sense as a passenger loco, perhaps Hornby should consider announcing that too...

 

If Hornby consider a Planet as their next engine I'd definitely get one - being one of those designs used by several early railways there'd be a wide range of possibilities.  IIRC one of the first engines on the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway was a Planet type, so I'd justify a purchase based on that 

[wainwright1]

56 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

Way things are going, I do think you may need to add a “most requested fake” category for the wishlist next year though.... BR Standard 2-8-2 would be my first choice GWR 9351 class 2-6-0 next.. and for fake liveries a GCR liveried Thompson A1, GWR Princess, and an LMS Castle...

 

never would have thought the hobby would end up here.

How about a SE & CR Wainwright 4-6-0 ? That would really be something in full Wainwright livery.

 

Ray

Edited March 10, 2021 by wainwright1

[Craigw]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

 

 

All of this, and what we outsiders know of some of their dealings with retailers, makes me and I suggest many other customers feel uncomfortable about the way they operate.

 

 

 

 

I bet that slight discomfort will not have any effect at all on sales.

 

Never stand between a modeller and his latest trinket unless you want to be trampled.

 

Craig W

[JSpencer]

At this moment in time, we don't have much info. Both are doing Lion yes, cost/quality probably former slightly in Hornby's favour, the latter probably slightly in Rapido's favour. Dates, Hornby probably 2022, Rapido probably 2023.

 

Afterwards how will the loco be offered?

For example, will Hornby sell it as a stand alone or do we need to buy it as part of a pack with yet another set of coaches? (perso, would love the postal coach but don't fancy another set of 1st class coaches, I could survive on extra 3rds.... but a stand alone loco is perfectly fine by me).

Will Rapido sell stand alone and if so, can it be coupled with Hornby's Rocket items? If it cannot, its useless for me personally but maybe not others who wish to run as Titfield or non Rocket rolling stock.

 

Roll on April the 1st. 

[Butler Henderson]

The fact that Hornby have only made a pretty odd announcement for them with no evidence whatsoever of any actual progress says to me they were aware of the film tie in and the announcement date (possibly lost out on the contract) and sought to gazump that in what is becoming their own petty minded approach instead of staying quiet, actually doing some thinking of their own and say announcing Sans Pereil instead which would actually be more useful to many given, like Rocket, the replicas visits around the country.

 

[Denbridge]

Lion? Pah. Im waiting for Hornby to produce Locomotion No.1 for the S&D bi-centennial in 2025.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

How can 9351 be a fake if it exists?

 

A bit like calling a Class 57 a fake. Or Royal Scot. It's a rebuild.

 

 

Jason

In that case Thomas is real !

Ive seen it on the M25.

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by adb968008

[adb968008]

7 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Lion? Pah. Im waiting for Hornby to produce Locomotion No.1 for the S&D bi-centennial in 2025.

And some Chaldrons...

 

 

[atom3624]

How about adding Unequalled as well?

 

Al.

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

A reputation that's taking a beating because people who know very little about the matter make a big deal of it.... 

 

Hornby gave us Rocket, it was popular. It was well documented that they were working on the additional rolling stock alongside Rocket and it's coaches. Yet Hornby received the brunt of the moaning for apparently copying RoS. It was quite obvious that RoS was trying to piggy back on Hornby's new found success. 

 

With Rocket being so successful, demand for more Era 1 models went up and it's quite clear that Hornby would expand their range if necessary. 

 

I'm sorry, but it seems like Rapido (if the 1st of April date is a serious one) is trying to piggy back on Hornby's success here. And once again it was quite obvious that Hornby would expand a range that was successful. That being said, it's an open market. Anyone can make anything they want. 

I can't really conceive of a situation where Rapido would need to piggy back on Hornby's 'success' in anything.  Apart from the fact that there could inevitably be some competition for a share of our spending I hardly see Rapido as being in competition with Hornby for the same market area.   Although it does look as if it might be Rapido that has rattled Hornby's cage there's as yet no indication of what Rapido's 'Titifield Thunderbolt' licence means nor is there any indication of the scale it will be produced in.  I would find it hilarious if it turns out that Hornby came out with a knee jerk reaction to Rapido doing something in 7mm scale and not 00.

 

Equally of course if Rapido do go for a 4mm scale version it has the film licence which enables it to market a model of 'Thunderbolt' whereas Hornby can only do a model of 'Lion' - different markets so no direct competition (apart from where our money happens to go).

Edited March 10, 2021 by The Stationmaster
correct typos

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

The fact that Hornby have only made a pretty odd announcement for them with no evidence whatsoever of any actual progress says to me they were aware of the film tie in and the announcement date (possibly lost out on the contract) and sought to gazump that in what is becoming their own petty minded approach instead of staying quiet, actually doing some thinking of their own and say announcing Sans Pereil instead which would actually be more useful to many given, like Rocket, the replicas visits around the country.

 

I think it's more than reasonable to assume that Lion has been in Hornby;s sights for some time and I mudst admit to beinga little surprised that it didn't appear in their 2021 releases.  But, as you say, from the unusal nature of  their announcement this week it looks as if they've got nothing tangible to show yet - not even a CAD - so it was some way down their list.   So I am pretty sure thatn they were doing somethinking of their i own but were caught on the hop by Prapido.

 

The odd thng about all this is that they have rarely reacted this way in the past.  For example their GWR large prairie was at a very advanced state in design when Dapol announced their version but Hornby never bothered to tell folk they were well ahead.   It was however a bit different when Hattons (them again) announced their (D JM) 'King' and Hornby came along pretty smartly showing progress on their own version but also  - so some have claimed - in something of a state of panic when they did so.

 

Hornby still appears to have the problem - which it seems unable to get away from - that it is a comparatively large organisation in relation to the size of it business and it sits further from its ultimate customers than most of the smaller concerns,  Decisions about which models to develop to production might still be subject the whims (sorry 'scrutiny') of accountants and the writing and circulation of business plans to pass through various parts of the organisation rather than a small team making a quick decision and getting on with it or working, as some do, to a clearly defined internal strategy based on themes of some sort.  Although they had the advantage of an already partly developed (by Oxford) prpject when it came to getting the terrier out very quickly that was an unusual event in their recent history.  Their version of Lion has probably 'suffered' from nothing more than sitting in a queue of projects at various stages of development but it now has a sudden incentive to proceed

[Tim Hall]

5 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

I once got a birthday card with an illustration of an  LMS liveried Castle, travelling through Sydney Gardens...

 

And I got a maroon liveried "City of Truro" (GWR 4-4-0 not class 47) one this Christmas....

[Mr chapman]

You know, looking from outside railway modelling I find the whole duplication thing fascinating. "Too many people making what I want is a problem". It will be just like the generic coaches or other models for many years. Best one gets the money. 

 

My other hobby is a game called airsoft. Similar to paintball. You have literally ten manufacturers working on the exact same weapon, churning out the same thing year after year. There's no calling, people buy the one they like. No one acts like they have personal stakes in the company. No one complains there is too much availability of what they want. 

 

Will both models sell? Absolutely. Both companies have dedicated people who will buy specifically because it has a certain name on the box. 

 

But come on people, talk about your first world problems... 

[The Johnster]

Duplication is IMHO bad for the hobby, but the threat of it, is good for the hobby as this is a normal feature of a competitive market.  But as has been stated, a truly competitive market leads to monopoly, or the total annhialation of all participants.  This never happens because participants drop out or new ones materialise, moving the goal posts, and the goals.

 

Mike Stationmasters' comments about Hornby's internal functioning are worth reading; he is perceptive and experienced in managerial affairs.  Maybe there is an 'ideal size' for those concerns producing model railway stuff; Bachmann seem to do ok, but at the speed of continental drift, and Peco have been around successfully since the Silurian Era; they must be doing something right.  But don't listen to me; I know nothing of business and am not much interested beyond wishing all participants well for the general weal of the hobby and the encouragement of RTR players to produce stuff I want!

[The Johnster]

My lord, I have a cunning plan!  Claim to be new RTR producer entering the market and announce, oh, I don't know, say, a range of GW stuff consisting of 2721, 1854, 44xx, Collett 1938 31xx, and Diagram A10, N, and GW rebuilt TVR gangwayed gangwayed auto trailers (there is absolutely no coincidence of these prototypes with those models I want produced) (well, perhaps a little), step back and await the announcements from H, Hatton's, Rapido, and Dapol or any combination thereof, and then 'go bankrupt' shortly before the models hit the market. 

 

Mwah ha ha ha haaaaa....

[Kris]

9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

My lord, I have a cunning plan!  Claim to be new RTR producer entering the market and announce, oh, I don't know, say, a range of GW stuff consisting of 2721, 1854, 44xx, Collett 1938 31xx, and Diagram A10, N, and GW rebuilt TVR gangwayed gangwayed auto trailers (there is absolutely no coincidence of these prototypes with those models I want produced) (well, perhaps a little), step back and await the announcements from H, Hatton's, Rapido, and Dapol or any combination thereof, and then 'go bankrupt' shortly before the models hit the market. 

 

Mwah ha ha ha haaaaa....

Something similar happen several years back in n gauge. An individual entered the market and claimed to have lots of locos ready to produce or in the process of production. A couple of classes actually appeared but after that everything when very silent and the firm appeared to fold. Only one other manufacture then tried to compete with some of the locos (DJM - we all know how that ended). The big boys didn't make any leap towards producing them.

[Dunsignalling]

Funny how its usually only stuff I don't really care about that gets duplicated. 

 

I do have some Hatton's 6-wheelers on order, but only on impulse, and they aren't something I exactly crave. If there was lots of stuff coming out that I really wanted, I wouldn't have bothered. I haven't bought any of Hornby's imitations because the impulse had already struck and I don't consider them to be up to the standard I'm expecting from  the Hatton's ones.

 

Interestingly, among all the comments about Hornby jumping on Rapido's supposed bandwagon with "Lion ", nobody seems to have considered that Rapido might also make coaches so they don't have to use Hornby's fiddly and fragile couplings....

 

John

Edited March 10, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Kris]

If, as it looks likely to me both Rapido and Hornby independently chose to produce the "Lion", then as larger company Hornby were always going to be on a loosing streak for publicity and perception once they found out that Rapido were planning to produce the same loco. It appears to me that they (Hornby) have tried to minimise this by putting out their announcement as soon as they could. This in turn forced Rapido's hand as they are unlikely to want to wait for people to preorder with Hornby. In the end neither company really wins except for the fact that they are both getting publicity for this.

[Helmdon]

28 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Funny how its usually only stuff I don't really care about that gets duplicated. 

 

I do have some Hatton's 6-wheelers on order, but only on impulse, and they aren't something I exactly crave. If there was lots of stuff coming out that I really wanted, I wouldn't have bothered. I haven't bought any of Hornby's imitations because the impulse had already struck and I don't consider them to be up to the standard I'm expecting from  the Hatton's ones.

 

It's funny how cascades work though isn't it? When Hattons announced Genesis I had no interest beyond actually thinking it was nice to see some pre-grouping liveries. Fast forward 6 months, Rails announce a Precedent in LNWR livery, and after pre-ordering within about 2 miliseconds I sat there thinking 'hmm, need something for it to pull'....

 

Suddenly, I'm back to Hattons for a pack. I agree with you that Hattons look better than Hornby, but given Hattons don't seem to be rushing to do the full brake in LNWR I might be taking up Mr Hornby on a baggage brake.

[adb968008]

If anything was to be duplicated, I wonder what a remake of Titfield Thunderbolt film would look like.

[PaulRhB]

13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

, I wonder what a remake of Titfield Thunderbolt film would look like.

Awful in comparison to the original, there’s a reason remakes of classics sink without trace   

 

 

[didcot]

The remake of The Ladykillers staring Tom Hanks must go down in history as one of the worst remakes ever!  We gave up after 10 minutes. 

[sir douglas]

edit remove

Edited March 10, 2021 by sir douglas

[JSpencer]

5 hours ago, Mr chapman said:

You know, looking from outside railway modelling I find the whole duplication thing fascinating. "Too many people making what I want is a problem". It will be just like the generic coaches or other models for many years. Best one gets the money. 

 

My other hobby is a game called airsoft. Similar to paintball. You have literally ten manufacturers working on the exact same weapon, churning out the same thing year after year. There's no calling, people buy the one they like. No one acts like they have personal stakes in the company. No one complains there is too much availability of what they want. 

 

Will both models sell? Absolutely. Both companies have dedicated people who will buy specifically because it has a certain name on the box. 

 

But come on people, talk about your first world problems... 

 

The same thing happens in military modelling. Just about everyone does a Tiger tank for example. The thing is though the airsoft and military models are a global market. UK outline loco models on the other hand sell mostly only within the UK.