RMweb Gold checkrail Posted March 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2021 When I bought my Bachmann 57xx & 8750 panniers some years ago I noted that they had differing designs of tank top water fillers, the earlier loco having the type with the prominent T shape screw handle and the later a somewhat sleeker item with a tip-tilted back end, looking in profile a bit like an oiling can. I just assumed that that is the way they left the works when new. I'm just embarking on adapting these two models to pre-war condition (removal of top feeds etc.) and have begun to wonder if the second design was a later addition, having recently noticed a number of pictures of 8750 class locos (both prototype and model) with the earlier pattern. (Conversely, I also note that new models of later pannier types - 16xx, 94xx, etc. - seem to have the 'oiling can' type.) Can't find any info online or on the gwr.org intro to panniers, and don't have access to the 'Pannier Papers'. Anyone know when the later type was introduced? My period is 1938/9 so if they came in after that they'll have to be sliced off (like the top feeds) and replaced. John C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimC Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 Don't forget the 8750s were built over a long period with different builders, and everything was removed and replaced at overhauls anyway. My impression is the later type was introduced pre war, but I wouldn't put any money on it. I think, as often with this sort of thing, you are best advised to do a photo hunt. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, checkrail said: Can't find any info online or on the gwr.org intro to panniers Oooo, err, hmmm. I'm on the case. Provisional view is that the later 'clasp' type of filler first appeared on the 54xx in 1930, but were not applied to 57xx/8750 locos for quite a while, so as Jim says, a photo search would be prudent to confirm this. The large Prairies however did change to the later type from 1930, but I don't think earlier screw-down filler types were updated. Edited March 9, 2021 by Miss Prism 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 If replacement is the go who supplies them please? Khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6892 Oakhill Grange Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 Russell has a picture of 9732 with the old type and I have a picture of 8758 with same. 9732 was built in early 1935. There is a picture of 3715 in RCTS in post war condition with the quick release type. This is not very conclusive as it could be a tank swap. Assuming the whole of the 9732 batch were built the same, then at least the first hundred or so 8751s were built with the screw down type. Oakhill 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 9 hours ago, kandc_au said: If replacement is the go who supplies them please? Khris 247 Developments do I think. Also try Alan Gibson Brassmasters have added quite a few parts recently from the Martin Finney kits. PDK do a few parts which I think were part of the old Crownline range. Possibly others, but quite a few sources have gone. Jason 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 (edited) Pro tem, I've updated gwr.org saying that the changeover from old to new fillers on the 8750 class appears to be from lot 293 (1935) onward. Edited March 10, 2021 by Miss Prism 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6892 Oakhill Grange Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 So from Pannier Papers Volume 4 9770 and all before had screw down fillers. The pictures of 9774 and 9775 are not so clear but I think they have screw down and are the same batch. 9784 and 9789 look to have the quick release type. From volume 2 all of the 37xx have quick release. All these observations are from BR era photos, so tank swaps may muddy the waters. However, the change appears to be uniform. As lot 293 ended with 9784, Miss Prism’s conclusion of change at the end of 9784 seems reasonable, but my observation above about 9784 seems strange. If anybody out there has Pannier Papers Vol 4 to hand, please have a look at the top photo on the last page and see what type you think 9784 has. Thanks Oakhill 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold checkrail Posted March 10, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 Thanks Miss P., Oakhill Grange and all of you for useful info. Using this, plus the newly-updated gwr.org article, the Wikipedia entry, and the John Daniel pages things are beginning to look a bit clearer. My current 8750 (still with topfeed) purports to be 3603, which according to Daniel went new to Exeter in early 1939. If I keep this number it can keep its clasp water fillers, its LH side bunker steps and extra handrail and its large whistle shield - and I won't need to buy new number plates either. John C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6892 Oakhill Grange Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 Clasp fillers. Yes! Not sure about the rest! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold checkrail Posted March 11, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 11, 2021 15 hours ago, 6892 Oakhill Grange said: Clasp fillers. Yes! Not sure about the rest! Well, one can never be sure, short of photos of every member of the class taken at least twice yearly throughout its life! But looking at the lot nos. and build dates it seems that the bunker steps and roof handrail were added from part way through lot no. 299, while the larger whistle shield was installed from part way through lot no. 306 of 1937/8. 3603 was built as part of lot no. 314 at beginning of 1939, so I think it's a reasonably safe assumption that it had these refinements fitted from new. At least, thanks to responses to my OP, I now know that all these features including the clasp type fillers, are plausible on a pre-war loco (in a way that a top feed isn't) so that'll do me! John C. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold checkrail Posted March 14, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 14, 2021 Since may last post I've found the answer to a prayer - a great picture from the SmugMug online railway photography collection of 3621 in 'shirtbutton' livery with clasp-type water fillers, large whistle shield, bunker steps and cab roof handrail, exactly as per my speculations about the appearance of 3603. Both were built in 1939 to lot 314. (3621 went to Neath). The photo also showed a different pattern of tank vent to the Bachmann models, one with an intervening joint or reinforcing ring around the column at about half way. I've been able to source a pair of these from Phoenix. Missed this picture on first search as there were quite a few SmugMug folders I couldn't open. I suspect it's my creaky superannuated laptop to blame. John C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 On 11/03/2021 at 10:28, checkrail said: But looking at the lot nos. and build dates it seems that the bunker steps and roof handrail were added from part way through lot no. 299, while the larger whistle shield was installed from part way through lot no. 306 of 1937/8. Great stuff. Did you get an indication when the small whistle shields began to appear (1936 it is thought) and when cab doors began to appear? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 I'm sure that's covered in The Pannier Papers. If I can remember I'll dig them out at some point. I must also buy the one I'm missing which is the 1366/15XX one. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold checkrail Posted March 17, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2021 On 15/03/2021 at 15:37, Miss Prism said: Did you get an indication when the small whistle shields began to appear (1936 it is thought) and when cab doors began to appear? According to the Wikipedia table of lot numbers the small whistle shield was introduced with lot 293 (9760 - 9784, 9/1935 to 7/1936) "probably", according to the article, from 9773 onward. It says that the larger shield came in from 3774 of lot 306 (8/1937 to 9/1938). Not sure re cab doors, but funny you should mention them. I've just been looking again at the 1936 photo in the Beck & Copsey book of 8709 (built 1931) at Brixham in 1936. On checking to see if it had cab doors by then (answer: no) I realised for the first time that prior to the introduction of said doors the cabside vertical handrail arrangement was different, with only the ones behind the door opening being cantilevered out on handrail knobs, while the foremost ones were of a typical Churchward cab style, being in the same plane as the cabside and fixed to the cabside beading at top and directly to the footplate at the bottom. Who knew? Probably all of you except me! So my own 8709 has had to undergo a bit more carving about in addition to topfeed removal etc. Now waiting for various bits & pieces from specialist suppliers to finish these two panniers off. John C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, checkrail said: According to the Wikipedia table of lot numbers the small whistle shield was introduced with lot 293 (9760 - 9784, 9/1935 to 7/1936) "probably", according to the article, from 9773 onward. It says that the larger shield came in from 3774 of lot 306 (8/1937 to 9/1938). Excellent. I must have missed that bit! Quote Not sure re cab doors, but funny you should mention them. I've just been looking again at the 1936 photo in the Beck & Copsey book of 8709 (built 1931) at Brixham in 1936. On checking to see if it had cab doors by then (answer: no) I realised for the first time that prior to the introduction of said doors the cabside vertical handrail arrangement was different, with only the ones behind the door opening being cantilevered out on handrail knobs, while the foremost ones were of a typical Churchward cab style, being in the same plane as the cabside and fixed to the cabside beading at top and directly to the footplate at the bottom. Illustrated on the pannier page (I think the upgrading of the original handrail arrangement was very gradual) Edited March 17, 2021 by Miss Prism 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6892 Oakhill Grange Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 Hi all RCTS states that changing the door handrail (and adding cab shutters) started in April 1937. With care you can modify the Bachmann and Mainline model to this form. Although I cannot post a photo because removing the topfeed and paint from a Mainline model proved much more difficult than modifying the handrail. oakhill 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold checkrail Posted March 19, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2021 17 hours ago, 6892 Oakhill Grange said: With care you can modify the Bachmann and Mainline model to this form. A bit like this: Very much 'work in progress' - still a lot to do! More on my layout thread in due course I hope. John C. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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