RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, MattA said: Hornby's many re-runs of Mallard and Flying Scotsman, not to mention their streamlined Duchess of Hamilton and - a few years ago now - Bachmann's 13000 and 49395 would beg to differ? Licencing Requirements change over time! Historically many a company has given permission for 3rd parties to reproduce their intellectual property thinking its not that important only to be somewhat surprised at the demand for said products, followed by disappointment that they gave away their rights for free / too cheaply. In recent years the Science Museum Group have got a lot tougher - they want to create a 'premium feel' about about products as well as get more profit from such licencing activities as well as increasing footfall through their museums. More prominent branding, models only being available through them, etc are all ways of achieving those aims. 2 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 17 hours ago, Skinnylinny said: Roll on, my beauties! 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said: Licencing Requirements change over time! Historically many a company has given permission for 3rd parties to reproduce their intellectual property thinking its not that important only to be somewhat surprised at the demand for said products, followed by disappointment that they gave away their rights for free / too cheaply. In recent years the Science Museum Group have got a lot tougher - they want to create a 'premium feel' about about products as well as get more profit from such licencing activities as well as increasing footfall through their museums. More prominent branding, models only being available through them, etc are all ways of achieving those aims. And don't forget that Science Museum Group are involved in the production and marketing of railway models under the National Collection in Miniature banner. that means they are hardly likely to go round shooting off their own foot by giving a potential money spinner to someone to make a profit out of. And in the end that is good for all of us because where. SMG can make money from commercial ventures it is ploughed back into their museums and saves us taxpayers paying for such things. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 This whole business will no doubt be a source of much amusement for us and we won't know the truth of it until 01 April. It is pretty obvious that 'something' spurred Hornby to make a very unusual - by their standards - announcement about 'Lion' although it was undoubtedly on their list anyway. So maybe they had got wind of Rapido's announcement and it could even be that the 'April fool' was somebody coming up with something, and letting it slip somewhere, just to see what Hornby would do in their current copycat state. Equally of course by using the artwork it looks as if Rapido have got some sort of licence from the owners of the film rights so maybe they will be making something. The W&U coach is an obvious target for them and there seems to be no hint in what little publicity there is available about what scale their models will be in. what a way to branch out into 0 gauge Equally of course - as noted upthread - there is the possibility at last of a really good 48XX/14XX (hopefully readily re-gaugable if they've been listening) so we'll no doubt hear more anguished cries from Margate if they do one of those because the 14XX is 'theirs'. (actually I thought it was K's). And there could be a Bedford OB (again already noted) and that must have a ready market out here lusting for it - one on every bridge by Christmas perchance? So plenty to muse about, a nice big thread growing up on here under the Rapido heading (no marketing is bad marketing if it promotes your brand), plenty of fun guessing what is really going to happen. And maybe even the cleverest way of running a wish list yet used in the UK model railway market - so Andy/Jason here's my contribution A really good 14XX (Bill probably would like one too? although it isn't NYO&W). and A Bedford OB - I'll take a couple please. 5 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said: I pointed out in the other thread Oxford Diecast had to have permission for the preserved Ford Anglia. Got one somewhere and it's definitely got something like "made under license" on the box. The thing with licensing is it’s very difficult to license a model of the vehicle but easy to license the branding. So you can make a sports car that looks remarkably like a F40 or GT40 but as soon as you use a Ferrari or Ford logo on the model it needs a license for the branding. Back in the 90’s a kit manufacturer I worked for could make a model of a Eurostar but they could charged to use the livery as it was protected along with the Chunnel cast circles. I don’t know the absolute legal position on the NRM locos, as I’m not bothered about making one, but I suspect it’s the NRM branding and National Collection in Miniature that are licensed not the actual model? Whether they have managed to protect certain names as trademarks too only they know but there doesn’t seem to be a problem with small producers making plates for Mallard, Hardwicke etc? Maybe Brian Greenwood or the other Locomotion staff would clarify how it works on their collection if asked if people are interested? 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 Regarding the remastering of the film on DVD, when was this done? I want to purchase a copy, but there are issues available from different years, I'd like the better one! Stewart 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 57 minutes ago, MattA said: Hornby's many re-runs of Mallard and Flying Scotsman, not to mention their streamlined Duchess of Hamilton and - a few years ago now - Bachmann's 13000 and 49395 would beg to differ? How long ago are you talking though? The last version of the streamlined Duchess Of Hamilton definitely had the NRM branding. As does Rocket. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, stewartingram said: Regarding the remastering of the film on DVD, when was this done? I want to purchase a copy, but there are issues available from different years, I'd like the better one! Stewart Look for the ones saying remastered like the link further up to Amazon. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, PaulRhB said: The thing with licensing is it’s very difficult to license a model of the vehicle but easy to license the branding. So you can make a sports car that looks remarkably like a F40 or GT40 but as soon as you use a Ferrari or Ford logo on the model it needs a license for the branding. Back in the 90’s a kit manufacturer I worked for could make a model of a Eurostar but they could charged to use the livery as it was protected along with the Chunnel cast circles. I don’t know the absolute legal position on the NRM locos, as I’m not bothered about making one, but I suspect it’s the NRM branding and National Collection in Miniature that are licensed not the actual model? Whether they have managed to protect certain names as trademarks too only they know but there doesn’t seem to be a problem with small producers making plates for Mallard, Hardwicke etc? Maybe Brian Greenwood or the other Locomotion staff would clarify how it works on their collection if asked if people are interested? I was more pointing out the Liverpool Museum version than the Ford Anglia branding. Mentioning manufacturers rights is going down a rabbit hole as I don't think Todd, Kitson and Laird have existed in that form for a very long time. It was a limited edition of the first one built which is in the museum. Definitely branded. Displayed on black plinth with clear plastic case and specially designed Museum of Liverpool cardboard slip. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/oxford-76-lime-green-liverpool-museum-282104170 If a model manufacturer is measuring up the locomotive then I would assume all this would have already been sorted. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 16 hours ago, Dan Griffin said: Not mad. Savvy. Looking at it i would think Hornby approached whoever holds the rights to the film for permission for a Thunderbolt model only to find that ‘someone else’ i.e, Rapido, had already beaten them too it, so they had to make a big announcement yesterday to avoid being second place. I would wager Rapido are further along with their project than Hornby are. if both projects go ahead, it will be interesting to see who wins the duel in the shops, with the raft of recent pre-order cancelations and customer let downs, and with the prospect of other vehicles from the film (14xx, Wisbech coach ( that would go well with the Rapido J70) steam roller and bus) Rapido may well have the edge on this. it will be interesting to watch it develop. meanwhile, i’ll be at Beals farm with the water! It's been a pretty open secret that Hornby would produce Lion. I wager we will see theirs first. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 We'll go down with flying colours! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Denbridge said: It's been a pretty open secret that Hornby would produce Lion. I wager we will see theirs first. If I must say I think you've been particularly fortunate. I would have been a pity if your timing had let you down.... Edited March 10, 2021 by The Black Hat 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2021 1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said: This whole business will no doubt be a source of much amusement for us and we won't know the truth of it until 01 April. It is pretty obvious that 'something' spurred Hornby to make a very unusual - by their standards - announcement about 'Lion' although it was undoubtedly on their list anyway. So maybe they had got wind of Rapido's announcement and it could even be that the 'April fool' was somebody coming up with something, and letting it slip somewhere, just to see what Hornby would do in their current copycat state. Equally of course by using the artwork it looks as if Rapido have got some sort of licence from the owners of the film rights so maybe they will be making something. The W&U coach is an obvious target for them and there seems to be no hint in what little publicity there is available about what scale their models will be in. what a way to branch out into 0 gauge Equally of course - as noted upthread - there is the possibility at last of a really good 48XX/14XX (hopefully readily re-gaugable if they've been listening) so we'll no doubt hear more anguished cries from Margate if they do one of those because the 14XX is 'theirs'. (actually I thought it was K's). And there could be a Bedford OB (again already noted) and that must have a ready market out here lusting for it - one on every bridge by Christmas perchance? So plenty to muse about, a nice big thread growing up on here under the Rapido heading (no marketing is bad marketing if it promotes your brand), plenty of fun guessing what is really going to happen. And maybe even the cleverest way of running a wish list yet used in the UK model railway market - so Andy/Jason here's my contribution A really good 14XX (Bill probably would like one too? although it isn't NYO&W). and A Bedford OB - I'll take a couple please. Good points on Scale , Mike . I just assumed OO. It could still be an elaborate hoax from Rapido , as the picture does make reference to April First , but really I think that would be very bad form . April Fools are supposed to be .......well on April 1st and really before 12. Assuming its not a prank , then showing a poster with Thunderbolt on it and then not making it would also be pretty obtuse . Mind you Rapido used to show blanked out silhouettes and ask you to guess whats coming next . I think I'm still waiting on that one , so who knows . Perhaps it will be revealed on the morning of April 1st , but then will we be able to believe them then? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium RichardT Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2021 1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said: And don't forget that Science Museum Group are involved in the production and marketing of railway models under the National Collection in Miniature banner. that means they are hardly likely to go round shooting off their own foot by giving a potential money spinner to someone to make a profit out of. All possibly very true, but this and all related speculation are irrelevant to “Lion” as National Museums Liverpool are NOT part of the Science Museum Group. NML is a NDPB sponsored by the DCMS, like the SMG, but they are completely separate charities. (NML is the only national museum based completely outside London, because Liverpool’s museums were nationalised to stop the-then Militant-controlled Liverpool Council selling off the collections.) Richard T 1 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium RichardT Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2021 (edited) More interesting from a speculation pov - if Hornby’s announcement was genuinely an attempt to spike Rapido’s guns, then I think egos are beginning to run ahead of business sense in Margate. Are Hornby seriously planning to try and pre-empt all other manufacturers’ plans? I remember the mid-70s when Hornby had the monopoly on 4mm rtr, and we don’t want to go back there! Richard Edited March 10, 2021 by RichardT Missing punctuation 1 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Griffin Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 I highly doubt this is a prank. advertising a world wide rights/license agreement? on a world wide platform? would Rapido stoop so low? No, of course not. What would Rapido gain by trying to alienate Hornby? Nothing. come on people, use some common sense, its not a prank. if, and it's a big if, i'm wrong, i'll gladly eat humble pie. Radio's hand was forced to Tuesday from April 1st because Hornby couldn't be seen to be copying someone else, and being second past the post, that's why they made a snap announcement Monday, instead of using the 2022 range announcement for Lion as they said themselves they would. There was no Hornby 'leak' of Lion, an internet search from prior to Monday shows just speculation from various parts. If it was an April fools joke, they could have waited until April 1st. it wouldn't have mattered at all. 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phatbob Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 Personally, I think this is Jason endulging his well known sense of humour. However, if it is genuine and includes a GWR 0-4-2 tank loco, would Rapido please engineer it like their Stirling single, i.e. with the trailing axle driven and geared to synchronise with the larger driving wheels. This would produce a loco that would be a de facto 0-6-0, obviating the notoriously poor running of previous attempts to engineer an 0-4-2. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy Angus Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 30 minutes ago, RichardT said: NML is the only national museum based completely outside London It may be slightly different to what you were meaning, but the National Museums of Scotland are all based completely outside London as well. Best wishes Roddy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hibelroad Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 The Rapido announcement is to be at 12.00. Traditionally fooling must end at 12.00 so perhaps the intention is to make the announcement genuine. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Not Jeremy Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 Well as the, ahem, "Cat's out of the bag" I think it is safe to reveal that research started off some years ago under cover of "Reg and Colin's Great Railway Adventure". Who can resist an OB? Reg 5 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, RichardT said: All possibly very true, but this and all related speculation are irrelevant to “Lion” as National Museums Liverpool are NOT part of the Science Museum Group. NML is a NDPB sponsored by the DCMS, like the SMG, but they are completely separate charities. (NML is the only national museum based completely outside London, because Liverpool’s museums were nationalised to stop the-then Militant-controlled Liverpool Council selling off the collections.) Richard T I don't think anybody said they were. Also don't believe all you read on Wikipedia. That Militant "fact" is extremely dubious as the Museums were Merseyside Museums rather than Liverpool at the time. They became nationalised when Merseyside County Council was abolished in 1986. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merseyside_County_Council Here's the legislation. Note Merseyside not Liverpool and worth remembering that not all councils in Merseyside were Labour at the time. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/226/pdfs/uksi_19860226_en.pdf Jason Edited March 10, 2021 by Steamport Southport 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Dan Griffin said: I highly doubt this is a prank. advertising a world wide rights/license agreement? on a world wide platform? would Rapido stoop so low? No, of course not. What would Rapido gain by trying to alienate Hornby? Nothing. come on people, use some common sense, its not a prank. if, and it's a big if, i'm wrong, i'll gladly eat humble pie. Radio's hand was forced to Tuesday from April 1st because Hornby couldn't be seen to be copying someone else, and being second past the post, that's why they made a snap announcement Monday, instead of using the 2022 range announcement for Lion as they said themselves they would. There was no Hornby 'leak' of Lion, an internet search from prior to Monday shows just speculation from various parts. If it was an April fools joke, they could have waited until April 1st. it wouldn't have mattered at all. Apparently someone posted an image on Facebook or Instagram of them measuring it.... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Not Jeremy Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Apparently someone posted an image on Facebook or Instagram of them measuring it.... Not just the locomotive either.... 3 1 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Phatbob said: Personally, I think this is Jason endulging his well known sense of humour. However, if it is genuine and includes a GWR 0-4-2 tank loco, would Rapido please engineer it like their Stirling single, i.e. with the trailing axle driven and geared to synchronise with the larger driving wheels. This would produce a loco that would be a de facto 0-6-0, obviating the notoriously poor running of previous attempts to engineer an 0-4-2. What are you expecting? For them to "Rig you something that will tow the Queen Mary"? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, The Black Hat said: What are you expecting? For them to "Rig you something that will tow the Queen Mary"? Nah, they were a Suffern thingy them Queen Marys. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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