Locos used between Carlisle and Stanraer

[signalnorth]

Can anyone tell me please what loco's were used on this line post 1948? I have the route (and very good it is too) on Train Simulator and wondered if I really should be running a B1 on it - I suspect not! 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Len

 

 

[hexagon789]

Definitely Stanier 5s

 

I think Clans

 

Possibly Crabs

 

Beyond that my knowledge fails

[Caley739]

LMS Fowler 2P 4-4-0, Fowler Compound 4P 4-4-0,Fairburn 4MT 2-6-4T, Hughes Fowler Crab 2-6-0, LMS 5MT 4-6-0, LMS 5XP 4-6-0, LMS 8F 2-8-0, Caley Jumbo 2F 0-6-0, Caley 3F 0-6-0, Standard 4MT 2-6-0, Standard 4MT 2-6-4T, Standard 6MT 4-6-2 were all definitely in use.

Other possibles are Caley MacIntosh/Pickersgill 3P 4-4-0, WD 8F 2-10-0, Standard 5MT 4-6-0.There may be others I have not thought of. A B1 4-6-0 is extremely unlikely but not impossible !

[signalnorth]

Thanks both. Great replies. Quite a mixture all in all then. Can anyone suggest a good pictorial book on this line too?

[Caley739]

Just thought of some more - LMS Stanier 3MT 2-6-2T, LMS Fowler 4F 0-6-0, Caley Pickersgill 4P 4-6-0.

[Bernard Lamb]

33 minutes ago, signalnorth said:

Thanks both. Great replies. Quite a mixture all in all then. Can anyone suggest a good pictorial book on this line too?

The definitive book is :- The Port Road by Andrew F. Swan.

Very strong on the history and civil engineering details but quite a selection of train photographs.

there is a version that comes with a CD but that contains mainly the drawings of the structures.

Bernard

[Wheatley]

No WD 2-10-0s, at least not west of Dumfries, they were too heavy, but Kingmoor Stanier 8Fs worked over the route in the 1950s, especially taking trains of spent munitions to Cairnryan to be dumped in Boris Beaufort Dyke. No sign of CR 60 Class (Pickersgill 4P 4-6-0) west of Dumfries either (pity). 

 

No evidence of B1s on the route that I've seen, not even at Stranraer via the Girvan road, but I've got one for Newton Stewart anyway (it was cheap...). Ayr had 3 or 4 in the 1960s, one of which was kept bulled up as the standby / shedmaster's 'pet' so not inconceivable that it could have ended up on the Port Road if something was needed at short notice. 

 

3MT 2-6-2s and 4F 0-6-0s generally confined to Dumfries - Kirkcudbright. The 812s (CR 3F 0-6-0) seem to have been confined to Dumfries local trips, there was also a Caley 300 Class (57661) there for a while. Beware though, Dumfries collected waifs and strays from all over but there is little evidence of some of them being used - there are photos of a J72 and J69 Buckjumper on shed but none of them in traffic (so far). 55124, last of the CR 19 Class, was station pilot there in between stints at Oban and Dalry Rd.  

 

Stranraer station pilot was a Caley 0-4-4T (55125, 29 Class), and there was a 789 Class 0-6-0T there too. 

 

08s and NBL 0-4-0 deisel shunters at Dumfries,  two Hunslet 05s at Stranraer. 

 

Stranraer had an Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0 (46467) for working the Whithorn branch in 1963/4, supplemented/replaced by BR Std 2MTs 78016 and 78026. 

 

BR Std 5MT 4-6-0s - definitely - 73009, 73079, 73100 confirmed. 

 

CR123 and GNoSR 49 on specials. 

 

All of the above outnumbered 20 to 1 by Black 5s. 

[luckymucklebackit]

Remember Derek Cross making a comment in on of the captions in a book that GSWR men didn't like LNER engines in any form, any that appeared in the area were dispatched back as soon as possible.  There are photos of B1s at Ayr but I doubt if they made it to the Port Line

 

JIm

[ardbealach]

Jubilee 45588 Kashmir also on the Port Road on 15 April 1963 on SLS Special.

 

Another reference book for the area - "Branches and Byways - South West Scotland and the Border Counties" by Robert Rowbotham by Oxford Publishing has a lot of photos, timetables and info.  ISBN 0 86093 575 2 and published in 2003. [Alisdair]  

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

All of the above outnumbered 20 to 1 by Black 5s. 

 

Nota bene! The unusual gets noted, the usual is taken for granted.

[signalnorth]

Excellent replies everyone. Thanks for taking the time to reply . So apart from 05 and 08 no diesels then? Wondered -Jintys  anywhere ?

 

Len

 

 

[Wheatley]

As well as the books, Irishswissernie has a 'Galloway' folder on Flickr with a lot of very good photos. 

 

Why no diesels ? - they were on the G&SWR main line from the early 60s but apart from shunters and DMUs they really didn't get a hold south of Ayr until 1966. Most of the Port Road turns were worked by Dumfries or Stranraer men, with a few Kingmoor turns on the boat trains. I don't know when Kingmoor men began to learn diesels but I believe Canal and Upperby got them first. Even if Kingmoor had diesels before 1965 (I haven't checked) there's no guarantee the same crew would bring it back, which would leave Stranraer with a loco and no-one passed out to drive it. They had the Hunslets from 1959 but that's all. 

 

Diesels worked the demolition trains in 1968 - 25s and 27s. 

 

Not found any Jinties outside Carlisle so far in your time period. Ayr and Hurlford got two or three each in 1923 but they seem to have been transferred away quite quickly, according to DL Smith the G&SWR men rejected them as antiquated - no power reverse and you couldn't reach the regulator and see the shunter at the same time. The Caley 0-6-0Ts and 0-4-4Ts held on until the early 60s.  

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Wheatley

[pH]

8 hours ago, Wheatley said:

No WD 2-10-0s, at least not west of Dumfries ...

 

There were WD 2-10-0s used on the Cairnryan Military Railway but, yes, not on BR lines.

8 hours ago, ardbealach said:

Jubilee 45588 Kashmir also on the Port Road on 15 April 1963 on SLS Special.

Jubilees were regular performers (daily for many years) Dumfries-Stranraer from the installation of a 60ft turntable at Stranraer in 1939 until the withdrawal of Kingmoor’s last three (including 45588) in 1965.

8 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

The definitive book is :- The Port Road by Andrew F. Swan.

Very strong on the history and civil engineering details but quite a selection of train photographs.

In my opinion (others may differ) the description of locomotives (particularly G&SWR locos) in some picture captions is the weakest point of an otherwise excellent book.

[pH]

4 hours ago, signalnorth said:

Wondered -Jintys  anywhere ?

 

4 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Not found any Jinties outside Carlisle so far in your time period. Ayr and Hurlford got two or three each in 1923 but they seem to have been transferred away quite quickly, according to DL Smith the G&SWR men rejected them as antiquated - no power reverse and you couldn't reach the regulator and see the shunter at the same time. The Caley 0-6-0Ts and 0-4-4Ts held on until the early 60s.  

There was a discussion earlier on here about their allocations in Scotland:

 

 

[SandyBrook]

Try also “The Little Railways of South West Scotland” By David L O Smith. 
Another route that we were robbed of.  But even Stranraer is a ghost town now that the actual port is up at Cairn Ryan

[signalnorth]

It seems theres a lot of you out there with lots of knowledge of the route!  Thanks all for taking the time to reply.  Len

[Wheatley]

37 minutes ago, pH said:

 

There were WD 2-10-0s used on the Cairnryan Military Railway but, yes, not on BR lines.

I'd forgotten about the CMR (despite mentioning trains of munitions earlier !), you're quite right of course. 

[Bernard Lamb]

19 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

I'd forgotten about the CMR (despite mentioning trains of munitions earlier !), you're quite right of course. 

There is a photo in the book I mentioned of two 6 wheel carriages.

I wonder how long they lasted.

Bernard

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

There is a photo in the book I mentioned of two 6 wheel carriages.

I wonder how long they lasted.

 

What's the context? Date? In a service train?

 

The LMS followed the Midland's practice of using old 6-wheelers as mess and tool vans so many locomotive depots had a couple allocated. They're usually modified with vertical boarding in place of some or all of the windows. In this condition some survived to the 1960s.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Compound2632

[Bernard Lamb]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What's the context? Date? In a service train?

16th September 1944. 

I presume they were in military use rather than general service stock.

 

Another photo depicts USATC gondolas.

Around the end of the war to nationalization would make an interesting model.

Bernard

[Wheatley]

Expanding the 6 wheel tangent a bit, there are photos of two different G&SWR Manson 6 wheel passenger brake vans in use as Pooley's Weighing Machine Vans in the 1960s, one at Dunragit and one trundling down the Whithorn branch in 1963. These would have travelled by ordinary goods train stopping off anywhere there was a weighing machine or weighbridge needing calibrating. Stranraer had another as breakdown tool van, together with an ex-CR non-corridor (bogie) coach as riding van. (Co-incidentally I have spent a lot of the last week looking for two prints of these which I know I have somewhere !) By the late 1950s Dumfries's tool vans comprised a proper CR 6 wheel purpose-built tool van and an ex-MR 6 wheel luggage composite as riding van. The latter also apparently doubled as the roster clerk's office !

 

The G&SWR 43' bogie coaches were still in service in the early 50s, one worked the last train to Portpatrick in 1950 behind 55125, but I've no evidence of 6 wheel coaches still in passenger use by then. 

[Banger Blue]

On 10/03/2021 at 11:29, ardbealach said:

Jubilee 45588 Kashmir also on the Port Road on 15 April 1963 on SLS Special.

 

Another reference book for the area - "Branches and Byways - South West Scotland and the Border Counties" by Robert Rowbotham by Oxford Publishing has a lot of photos, timetables and info.  ISBN 0 86093 575 2 and published in 2003. [Alisdair]  

 

On 10/03/2021 at 20:18, SandyBrook said:

Try also “The Little Railways of South West Scotland” By David L O Smith. 
Another route that we were robbed of.  But even Stranraer is a ghost town now that the actual port is up at Cairn Ryan

 

Apologies to the OP for a slight thread hijack.

 

Do these books mentioned above, have much coverage of the CR Dumfries - Lockerbie branch that ran through Locharbriggs at all please?

[ardbealach]

HR 103 Jones Goods ran on Dumfries Lockerbie branch on a special enthusiast excursion complete with Observation car - the same as the Hornby one -  back in the mid Sixties. (Alisdair)

[pH]

On 10/03/2021 at 12:18, SandyBrook said:

Try also “The Little Railways of South West Scotland” By David L Smith. 

 

5 hours ago, Banger Blue said:

Do these books mentioned above, have much coverage of the CR Dumfries - Lockerbie branch that ran through Locharbriggs at all please?

“The Little Railways of South-West Scotland” only mentions the Lockerbie-Dumfries line in relation to Caledonian access to the Portpatrick and Wigtonshire Joint and its predecessors. There’s no detailed description of the line.

 

One interesting point about that line. When the PP&W Joint Committee was formed, the two English partners were granted running powers to access the joint line. The Midland already had running powers over the whole G&SWR system, so only needed to be granted powers over the CR from Carlisle to Gretna Junction. The LNWR was given powers over the CR from Carlisle to Lockerbie, over the CR branch from there to Dumfries, then over the G&SWR to Castle Douglas. 
 

I wonder if a LNWR engine ever took a train over that route? (The whole route - I know about the Webb 2-4-2Ts on the Lockerbie-Dumfries push-pulls in LMS days.)

Edited March 15, 2021 by pH

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, pH said:

One interesting point about that line. When the PP&W Joint Committee was formed, the two English partners were granted running powers to access the joint line. The Midland already had running powers over the whole G&SWR system, so only needed to be granted powers over the CR from Carlisle to Gretna Junction. The LNWR was given powers over the CR from Carlisle to Lockerbie, over the CR branch from there to Dumfries, then over the G&SWR to Castle Douglas. 
 

I wonder if a LNWR engine ever took a train over that route? (The whole route - I know about the Webb 2-4-2Ts on the Lockerbie-Dumfries push-pulls in LMS days.)

 

None of those running powers were ever exercised. 

 

For one thing, the English crew would need a pilotman from whichever Scottish company was "in residence" at the time. (Did they alternate? Or was the GSWR solely responsible after 1885?)