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Hope Valley upgrade


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1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Didn't know the tunnel at Dore was single. When did that happen?

If its the one on Dore South curve, that's been single for quite some time.

 

Edit: Looking back through some records, I have a copy of a signalling scheme plan dating from April 1975 that shows the line Dore West to Dore South (the South Curve) being single then, so longer than I thought.

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19 minutes ago, iands said:

If its the one on Dore South curve, that's been single for quite some time.

 

It is, but if I've understood the discussions on WNXX they're on about a freight loop at Bamford, redoubling the west to north curve at Dore through the station including a new platform, and also making Dore south curve long enough to hold a freight on. Currently once a freight is running from Earle's sidings near Hope there's nowhere to hold it without blocking the route from Sheffield to the Hope Valley. If it's out of course it may then have to either cause more delays at Dore or be turned out mainline, the next escape point then being Chesterfield. 

There should be room to move the junction back towards Totley tunnel as there's a disused layby siding at a higher level before the Tunnel East signal box.

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3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-56362937

 

£137m for the Sheffield-Manchester route to make it better and introduce a third train per hour.

 

Anyone have more details on this and what the upgrade might cover:

  • Freight loops?
  • Doubling the tunnel at Dore?

From my time on the Northern Hub project (2012), there were several proposals for Journey Time Improvement schemes being considered for the Hope Valley route; new loop at Chinley, new loops at Grindleford (several alignment options being considered), new (reinstated?) second platform and Down line at Dore, but there was nothing in the plan for redoubling the tunnel at Dore.

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8 minutes ago, great central said:

 

It is, but if I've understood the discussions on WNXX they're on about a freight loop at Bamford, redoubling the west to north curve at Dore through the station including a new platform, and also making Dore south curve long enough to hold a freight on. Currently once a freight is running from Earle's sidings near Hope there's nowhere to hold it without blocking the route from Sheffield to the Hope Valley. If it's out of course it may then have to either cause more delays at Dore or be turned out mainline, the next escape point then being Chesterfield. 

There should be room to move the junction back towards Totley tunnel as there's a disused layby siding at a higher level before the Tunnel East signal box.

There wasn't anything planned at Bamford during my time on the project, but that was getting on for 9 years ago, so a lot of rethinking could have taken place since. All the other aspects that you mention seem to be in the "original" plan.

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1 minute ago, iands said:

There wasn't anything planned at Bamford during my time on the project, but that was getting on for 9 years ago, so a lot of rethinking could have taken place since. All the other aspects that you mention seem to be in the "original" plan.

 

Again from discussion on WNXX, the original idea was a loop at Grindleford but the Peak park people aren't keen on that so Bamford has been put forward.

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3 hours ago, iands said:

From my time on the Northern Hub project (2012), there were several proposals for Journey Time Improvement schemes being considered for the Hope Valley route;

Not holding my breath on this one. Back in 1991 we were planning various projects in the Manchester area culminating in it all going on one control centre by 2008, co-incidentally located at Ashburys. I even had a plan of the building in my archive for many years. I was designated Signal Engineer for even numbered stages, the last of which, Stage 10, was the Hope Valley Line resignalling and route improvements. 30 years after our initial work it still hasn't even got as far as the drawing board yet.

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The general idea does seem to have been floating about for a long time, definitely since before I joined up to play trains with SheffieldMidland (142 Squadron) which is now a rather scary quater of a century ago !

 

As far as I recall, the issues are not so much at the Sheffield end, as they are with  the traffic levels from Hazel Grove thru to Piccadilly...

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35 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

If only there was, or ever had been, an alternative line between Sheffield and Manchester!

 

Mike.

I thought the Hope Valley line was the alternative; or at least, the (very) latecomer

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47 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

If only there was, or ever had been, an alternative line between Sheffield and Manchester!

 

Mike.

With an adequate upgrade and maybe eventual electrification, chances are the Hope Valley will be all that's really needed for the foreseeable future.

 

Certainly a more likely strategy than a brand new route though a national park. 

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I took the "alternative routes" comment to mean that there are alternatives to going via Hazel Grove (albeit ones that would miss out Stockport), although I've now spotted the obvious alternative there once was.

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1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

With an adequate upgrade and maybe eventual electrification, chances are the Hope Valley will be all that's really needed for the foreseeable future.

 

Certainly a more likely strategy than a brand new route though a national park. 

They could always fight Sustrans and Peak Rail for the Matlock route, then send the East Midland services via Derby instead of Sheffield to Nottingham & beyond.  Course that doesn't solve the issue of Hazel Grove to Piccadilly unless they also fought Metrolink and opened a line back to Central station from Cheadle......

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Just now, Zomboid said:

Looking at maps of the area, Hazel Grove itself is only an issue if running every train via Stockport is necessary - there are alternatives, though no doubt they have issues of their own.

I don't *think* the route via Marple is particularly busy (although of course that doesn't tell me much when I don't know what it's capacity is). It's probably slower than via Stockport and Hazel Grove.

 

Probably a completely  ridiculous and impractical solution, but could Hazel Grove station be moved to where the sidings are and convert the sidings to loops (I think they're truncated remains of loops anyway), so the Sheffield trains could run right through with less impact from the Buxton line stoppers?

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9 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I don't *think* the route via Marple is particularly busy (although of course that doesn't tell me much when I don't know what it's capacity is). It's probably slower than via Stockport and Hazel Grove.

 

Probably a completely  ridiculous and impractical solution, but could Hazel Grove station be moved to where the sidings are and convert the sidings to loops (I think they're truncated remains of loops anyway), so the Sheffield trains could run right through with less impact from the Buxton line stoppers?

Think the Park and Ride element of Hazel Grove requires it to stay put, but there does appear to be space at the station itself to add 2 additional platform faces and hold the terminating services there - surely more efficient that the current reversals into the sidings and then back to the station again situation.

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I guess what might help in the future is if HS2 actually reaches Manchester, and the separate station is built, there will be space created because the London expresses are removed to it. I'm more than a little convinced that one of the reasons that the service frequency on my local line (Glossop) can't be improved is because of platform issues at Piccadilly. I think the line via Marple is fairly fast, if you neglect New Mills South Junction.

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6 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Think the Park and Ride element of Hazel Grove requires it to stay put, but there does appear to be space at the station itself to add 2 additional platform faces and hold the terminating services there - surely more efficient that the current reversals into the sidings and then back to the station again situation.

A proper reversing siding or platform would improve utilisation, as would running the service to the next station down the other line (Buxton line?).

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4 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

A proper reversing siding or platform would improve utilisation, as would running the service to the next station down the other line (Buxton line?).

Next station down the Buxton line is Middlewood, which is a bit of an oddball place (no road access), and quite a few don't stop. I think the next place a reversal is possible is Furness Vale, which is quite a stretch.

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18 minutes ago, 62613 said:

I guess what might help in the future is if HS2 actually reaches Manchester, and the separate station is built, there will be space created because the London expresses are removed to it. I'm more than a little convinced that one of the reasons that the service frequency on my local line (Glossop) can't be improved is because of platform issues at Piccadilly. I think the line via Marple is fairly fast, if you neglect New Mills South Junction.

Or they simply want to justify Metrolink getting it's hands on it - use the old trackbed alongside the existing route from Gorton to Hyde North for Metrolink and the existing tracks for heavy rail - or tram train it.

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Whilst the current arrangements at Hazel Grove might be a bit awkward I've sometimes thought they might make for what could be a reasonably operationally interesting layout for a fairly simply track layout, particularly if anyone can come up with a good way of compressing it significantly.

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