Birmingham New St, what loco's would be seen at this station between 1950 and 1963?

[Royal42]

Hello all,

I have started to construct a section of New Street station, as it was before the major rebuild of 1964 onwards, and I would like to find out what loco's would be seen at either of the two regional services platforms; LMS and LNWR during this period.  I'm looking for as much detail, from the largest to the smallest, which I believe was a little diesel shunter.

Any help and advice would be gratefully appreciated.

Mike

Edited March 14, 2021 by Royal42

[TravisM]

Depends on which “side” your modelling and it having a very high volume of passenger and parcel traffic, a fair bet would have to be Black 5’s, Royal Scots, Jubilees, Patriots, Princess Royals, Coronation Scots but unsure if many BR Standards made it through there, but if they did, they would likely to be Brits and 4-6-0’s.

 

I’m sure that list only scratches the surface of what types made it through BNS in the time frame you mentioned.

[Royal42]

Hello Jules,

I am building the section at the west end of the platforms, where the turntable is, and where both sides merge into the main lines. As such, virtually everything and anything; passenger and parcel,  that called at either side or even straight through.   Thanks for those types you have mentioned, I shall look those up.

 

I have seen a site that has drawings of loco's but they mainly call them by number types; such as 39xx, 60xx and 94xx but I'm not sure if these match up to any name types like Prairie or Pannier etc. 

 

If you or anyone else knows of any others, then I would appreciate learning about them.

Cheers,
Mike

Edited March 14, 2021 by Royal42

[TheSignalEngineer]

www.warwickshirerailways.com is a good place to start. This page is the best way into the New Street stuff, showing plenty of infrastructure pictures. https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/bhamnewstreet.htm

Also go on to the loco page showing pictures in BR days

[SandyBrook]

If I remember correctly the 4-6-2s couldn’t use New Street ( tunnel clearances?) so nothing bigger than a Scot, London trains were usually Jubilees ( Comet, Samson and Polyphemus were regulars about 1956, Wolverhampton Bushbury  locos at  the time  I imagine ) and often double headed on Fridays. Black 5s and assorted tankies otherwise

 

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by SandyBrook

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 minutes ago, SandyBrook said:

If I remember correctly the 4-6-2s couldn’t use New Street so nothing bigger than a Scot, London trains were usually Jubilees and often double headed on Fridays. Black 5s and assorted tankies

 

 

A bit of an urban myth. There are plenty of examples of Pacifics in New Street, the LMR didn't use their Staniers until the early 1960s as they were needed on the heavier trains particularly WCML up north. There were trains to Scotland starting out from New Street with a Scot then changing to a Stanier Pacific at Crewe.

After all, why use a Class 8 loco when the normal weekday loading on most trains could be managed by a Compound or at most a Black 5. 

[Royal42]

Thanks for this info.  My diorama will be to N scale/1:148 and I was thinking of getting some Dapol OO plastic kits to use for measuring and downscaling; mainly as they are fairly cheap. Would their Mogul, Schools or 9F class types have been seen at New Street between 1950 and 1963?  There is also the Biggin Hill kit but that looks to be quite large, plus they have a Deltic loco.

 

cheers,
Mike

Edited March 14, 2021 by Royal42

[SandyBrook]

Just ex LMS and LNWR types basically  I.e Midland Region, things were still very parochial in those days

[Royal42]

I'm quite a newbie to this and not up to speed with the ex LMS and LNWR types yet.  Having said that, I am currently looking at the link to Warwickshire Railways, suggested by TheSignalEngineer, and found some details of loco's:

ex-LMS 5XP 4-6-0

ex-LMS 4F 0-6-0

ex-LMS 2-6-4T

ex-LMS 4-4-02P

ex-LMS 4-6-0 Stanier Black 5

Standard Class 7MT 'Britannia Class' 4-6-2 Pacific

I just need to do some searching to see what these actually look like.

cheers,
Mike

Edited March 14, 2021 by Royal42

[TravisM]

I’m pretty sure that ex GWR types wouldn’t have come into BNS as they would have used the Snow Hill route but I’m happy to be proven wrong.  As to the Stanier 4-6-2’s, I remember seeing a picture of a red Coronation Scot heading south in the early 60’s.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Very few GWR locos ever visited New Street because of clearance issues. The only one I actually recall was a 94xx from Bromsgrove assisting an ailing Peak. Halls were permitted through some platforms as they had a regular working into Washwood Heath but that was booked via Camp Hill.

[Royal42]

That is interesting to know, as the 94xx is the only one I recognise that I've found a plan for.  I intend to scratchbuild/3D print some of the loco's and I had started on this, until I was advised these never came through New Street.

 

I could never afford actual N scale models; however, all this info should help me know what to look for in plans and details to make some models myself.

 

cheers,
Mike

Edited March 14, 2021 by Royal42

[TheSignalEngineer]

Try this link for drawings of LMS locos. http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Locos/BR_exLMS_Locos_SB_web.pdf

There is also a book of BB Standard locos on the Barrowmore site

[Royal42]

What an amazing resource, thank you for the link.  I can, hopefully, compile a list of likely engines at New St and check them against the drawings.  Then I can decide what to have a go at first.

Thanks again,

Mike

[TerryD1471]

Hi

 

I spotted at New Street every Saturday morning until late 1958. The LNW side saw every type of large LM loco (Black 5, Jubilee, Patriot, Scot) and a number of Standards (Brits and Std 5s), but we never saw any LM Pacifics until later. The tunnels into New St were supposedly too tight and it was only after they were altered in connection with various road "improvements" in the city that they were allowed in. This also coincided with the modernisation programme that had D2xx diesels taking over the Pacific diagrams on the WCML that cascaded the Pacifics down to the Euston to Birmingham/Wolverhampton duties. So you will find some pictorial evidence of Pacifics in New St, but only post 1959.

 

The Midland side (Derby to Bristol) side was less busy. I remember going over there from time to time and being disappointed that there semed to be far less happening than on the LNW side.

 

Spotters seemed to congregate by the "fish dock" at the south-east end. There you could see everything going in & out of the LNW side but also the Midland side.

 

I understand you are planning to model the other end (north-west) where the turntable was. That will be interesting, although road bridges do impinge somewhat. But you will have departures for Gloucester & Bristol on the Midland side (to the left) and for Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe etc. on the right.

 

The great advantage of New St is that it was a very restricted site. You could therefore build a really busy layout in less space than many a country branch line terminus. Good luck!

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

There was no problem from the Monument Lane end in 1951.

46223 at Birmingham by geoff7918, on Flickr

 

I think it was more because they weren't needed for the traffic. I have something at the back of my mind that there was an instruction that the sidescreens had to be folded in before entering the tunnels. The Up London line was the tightest, I remember my grandad having his cap taken off by a train when working at the Proof House end.

 

[Royal42]

Thanks Terry,

I think I started about 1957 but couldn't get up there as often as I would have liked.  Last time there was about 1963 when it got too difficult to enter, due to the start of all the demolition work.  My uncle was a driver and manned the little diesel shunter out of (I think) the bay of Platform 6.  I got a couple of footplate rides, only out to the turntable and back.

I am finding that there is very little available in matching buildings or structures for New Street, therefore I am going to attempt to build a few items myself.  I have started on the turntable and am progressing well with it, having just added the cross planks.

Also, as you will remember, the buildings on the north side; Queen's Hotel etc., were on a higher level and seemed to tower over the station.  Those building will, hopefully, be the backdrop for my layout but I need to get the measurements for those first.

 

If I remember correctly, the eastern end of platform 2 was a good location because the loco's used to get a lot of wheel spin when setting off from there.  Noisy and the perfect sound from a heavy locomotive!

 

cheers

Mike

Edited March 20, 2021 by Royal42

[TheSignalEngineer]

There was at least one other instance when City of Birmingham was exhibited aat New Street for the Centenary celebration in 1954. That was the only one I saw before the D200s came on the WCML expresses and the LMR had a surplus of large express locos.

[Royal42]

Here we go, hot off the press; so to speak.  There's not much to see; however, the base of the turnable has been printed.  It consists of the outer wall, an inner shelf for the track, the circular track for the turntable and a central spigot.  It should look a lot better when painted, weathered and slotted into the baseboard.

There's a little bit of a rim at the base, where it adhered to the build plate but that will clean off after it has been cured. 

I placed the Lone Star loco in the well just to give a dimensional look to it.   

 

The base is now in my home built UV curing station and I shall clean it all up in the morning.

Next will be the table itself once I have finished drawing it.   The single decker Leyland PS2 Tiger in the background is also one of my 3D prints.

 

cheers,
Mike

Edited March 20, 2021 by Royal42

[Dancess]

You will probably find this interesting.

 

 

[Royal42]

Wonderful stuff and in colour.  I can now go and identify the locos by using their numbers.  I'm not certain but I think I recognise an Evening Star type, plus a Battle of Britain type, which means that I can get the Airfix/Dapol plastic kits and use them for measurements.

 

thanks very much for the link.

 

Mike

[Pete the Elaner]

14 minutes ago, Royal42 said:

Wonderful stuff and in colour.  I can now go and identify the locos by using their numbers.  I'm not certain but I think I recognise an Evening Star type, plus a Battle of Britain type, which means that I can get the Airfix/Dapol plastic kits and use them for measurements.

 

thanks very much for the link.

 

Mike

 

Evening Star is a 9F. I did not see any of those in that clip. They have a 2-10-0 wheel arrangement. I did see a couple of 7P6F 'Brittania' class (sometimes known as 7MT so I am not entirely sure which is correct). These have a similar high running plate but have a 4-6-2 wheel arrangement, with larger driving wheels, which made them better for passenger work, although 9Fs were known to work well when hauling passenger services.

 

I was surprised to see a Battle of Britain/West Country class so I was not surprised to hear that it was on a special. (these are identical, WCs being based on the Western part of the Southern & BoBs having a wartime/maritime naming scheme). Merchant Navy class were heavier & fatter, but all were rebuilt with standard boilers.

 

The LMS had several 4-6-0s:

The black 5's were very widespread. As their name suggests, they were always black. I always felt Jubilees looked similar apart from their colour, which would have been red or green in BR days. The boilers looked slightly slimmer than the Black 5s but the giveaway is they have splashers over the driving wheels. The black 5s did not.

The 2 rebuilt Jubilees had fatter boilers, similar (but not quite the same) as the rebuilt Scots & Patriots.

All the Scots were rebuilt in the late 40s/early 50s. You can tell these from the rebuilt Patriots because they retained a Fowler cab with 1 side window & a curved cutaway. Rebuilt Patriots had 2 rectangular side windows. Confused? I'll add some more then  The first rebuilt Scot (which was actually rebuilt Fury) had Stanier windows & a non-standard boiler.

Rebuilt Scots & Patriots all had smoke deflectors by the 1950s, with the possible exception of 6170 British Legion, which I am not sure about (the first rebuilt Scot I mentioned earlier). That also had unique steam pipes. The Jubilees did not get deflectors.

The Patriots which did not get rebuilt retained their parallel boiler.

I think I saw a Standard 5 in the video. This was based on the black 5 but had a high running plate with a steeply angled (BR Standard-style) front section, similar to the Britannias & 9Fs

 

On to the LMS 4-6-2s:

The first 2 Princesses had slightly different sized fireboxes to the last 10, but I can't tell you how they differ.

I know more about the Duchesses..

The last Coronation (Duchess) to be de-streamlined was done in 1949. These initially had a slope at the top of the smokebox, but these were 'normalised' in the 1950s. They kept a stepped front running plate. Those built un-streamlined (46230-46234 & 46249-46252) had a curved front running plate, similar to the Princesses. Jubilees etc. 46253-46255 were never streamlined but were built with the stepped front running plate which the de-streamliners were given, so they looked like de-streamliners. The last 2 of the class were built to a modified Ivatt design, featuring different pony trucks, cab side & stepped running plate.

Some of the class carried red livery but since my interest in them stops at nationalisation (& it was almost painful to type 462.. instead of just 62..  ), I do not know which carried each livery.

[Royal42]

Confused?  Absolutely!  Interesting?  Absoverylutely!

 

So, not everything with the front flaps/side panels were Evening Star types?  I have been trying to avoid buying any railway books, mainly as I want to concentrate what funds I have on actual layout and loco items, but it seem that I shall have to bite the bullet and get something about recognising LMS, LNWR and their ex- types in BR control during the 1950s and 60's.

 

I have just started to read your thread about the LMS Layout.  The first things that have caught my eye are your sloped retaining walls and bridges over the lines.  I am going to read that again, just to get more detail, as my station layout will have very similar settings.

 

Thanks,

Mike

Edited April 1, 2021 by Royal42

[David Bell]

2 hours ago, Royal42 said:

Confused?  Absolutely!  Interesting?  Absoverylutely!

 

So, not everything with the front flaps/side panels were Evening Star types?  I have been trying to avoid buying any railway books, mainly as I want to concentrate what funds I have on actual layout and loco items, but it seem that I shall have to bite the bullet and get something about recognising LMS, LNWR and their ex- types in BR control during the 1950s and 60's.

 

I have just started to read your thread about the LMS Layout.  The first things that have caught my eye are your sloped retaining walls and bridges over the lines.  I am going to read that again, just to get more detail, as my station layout will have very similar settings.

 

Thanks,

Mike

You can get a lot of info on the net. Put in BR standard steam locomotives in your search and you will get a lot of info. Save you buying the books initially

Cheers

David

[pH]

2 hours ago, Royal42 said:

I have been trying to avoid buying any railway books, mainly as I want to concentrate what funds I have on actual layout and loco items, but it seem that I shall have to bite the bullet and get something about recognising LMS, LNWR and their ex- types in BR control during the 1950s and 60's.

 

I would suggest getting a ‘general’ type of book to act as a sort of index to types of engines. That’s the way I started many (many) years ago. My first book of that kind was “Locomotives of British Railways” by Casserley and Asher - the 1961 (reprinted  1963) version by Spring Books which covers all steam engines inherited in 1948, plus the BR Standards. There is a very short description of each class, plus at least one illustration.

 

There are also reprints of Ian Allan ‘Combined’ volumes for some years. Since you’ve specified dates of 50s/60s, I would suggest the reprint of the 1955 volume.

 

There are copies of both of these available on Abebooks and Biblio for prices that shouldn’t take too much away from the actual modelling funds.

 

5 minutes ago, David Bell said:

You can get a lot of info on the net. Put in BR standard steam locomotives in your search and you will get a lot of info. Save you buying the books initially.

I would suggest using the web (Wikipedia even!) as a secondary source, if/when you want more information on a particular class than is given in the ‘index’ type books above.