Birmingham New St, what loco's would be seen at this station between 1950 and 1963?

[scottystitch]

I would recommend getting yourself one of these to give you an understanding of what you're looking at in terms of classes, and usually pretty cheap.

 

There is a section at the front that explains the basic principals of the steam locomotive, wheel arrangements, head codes, etc.

 

You will need to choose an edition that will fit in with the period you're interested in. 

 

Best

 

Scott.

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, Royal42 said:

Confused?  Absolutely!  Interesting?  Absoverylutely!

 

So, not everything with the front flaps/side panels were Evening Star types?  I have been trying to avoid buying any railway books, mainly as I want to concentrate what funds I have on actual layout and loco items, but it seem that I shall have to bite the bullet and get something about recognising LMS, LNWR and their ex- types in BR control during the 1950s and 60's.

 

I have just started to read your thread about the LMS Layout.  The first things that have caught my eye are your sloped retaining walls and bridges over the lines.  I am going to read that again, just to get more detail, as my station layout will have very similar settings.

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

Evening Star was a class 9F, a freight class which was the most powerful of the BR Standards.

The BR Standards had similar traits. The 3 classes of 4-6-2; Brittanias, Clans & the lone Duke of Gloucester looked very similar. There were only 10 Clans & I believe they worked mainly in the North & Scotland. You could simply choose to not bother with the Duke because there was only the 1 & it didn't work very well until after preservation so probably never ventured very far from Crewe (an assumption & a good excuse to ignore it on your layout). 9Fs were (as the F suggests), a freight design & I am not sure freights regularly worked through New St.

 

I'll be happy to help with the structures if I can. My retaining walls & tunnel mouths are laser cut so I should be able to scale them down to N gauge, although I use 2mm acrylic & anything thinner warps badly. I assume the laser cutter still works, having not switched it on for a year!

 

If you've not already seen it, you may be interested in seeing Jim Smith-Wright's P4 scale Birmingham New Street https://www.p4newstreet.com . Jim is a fussier modeller than me & I have found progress is slow when you are fussy!

[TheSignalEngineer]

18 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

The BR Standards had similar traits. The 3 classes of 4-6-2; Brittanias, Clans & the lone Duke of Gloucester looked very similar. There were only 10 Clans & I believe they worked mainly in the North & Scotland.

The Clans did a few running in turns on an early morning Crewe to New Street train when first built before being sent to their intended homes in the north. That would have been late 1951 / early 1952. They were very rare visitors south of Liverpool / Manchester after that, usually on specials. I think one got through in 1962 for the opening of Coventry Cathedral.

 

19 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

9Fs were (as the F suggests), a freight design & I am not sure freights regularly worked through New St.

There were only a small number of booked freights through New Street. From memory these were

• Templecombe - Derby perishables which dropped off fruit & veg market traffic about 2am
• Sheffield - Birmingham Central Goods which dropped off fish for market about 4am
• Bournville to Water Orton Cadburys traffic for the north and some export traffic around 1pm

The only time I saw 9Fs there was on Summer Saturday passenger trains on the Midland side

[Royal42]

This is really useful information for me, thank you.  Did you keep logs, especially of the engine numbers and types and, more especially, do you still have them?   I have a great interest in what was where, and when, and spotting logs are the best method I have found for that.  Unfortunately, my parents threw my logs away when I joined up.  Talking of spotting logs, another diorama that I am constructing is Elmdon (Birmingham Airport); during the same time period.  I have collected quite a few aircraft registrations and dates.  These are very useful as they help me to decide which aircraft was present on specific days or months and that means I can match the correct vehicle types and structures to be found there.

 

I would like to know more please, if you do still have such info about BNS.

 

As an aside, whilst watching that Youtube video of BNS,  I noticed a little number above the loco's number of the drivers compartment.  Although very fuzzy, on one of them it looked to be 7F.   Did engines have their type shown in that position?

 

cheers,
Mike

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, Royal42 said:

 

As an aside, whilst watching that Youtube video of BNS,  I noticed a little number above the loco's number of the drivers compartment.  Although very fuzzy, on one of them it looked to be 7F.   Did engines have their type shown in that position?

 

 

Yep. This was an LMS power classification which was adopted by BR. Ex-GWR, LNER & SR locos were given similar classifications but I am not sure if they were displayed on the cab sides.

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 hours ago, Royal42 said:

Did you keep logs, especially of the engine numbers and types and, more especially, do you still have them? 

Sadly much of my notes from the 1950s to 1968 disappeared somewhere during the various house moves my parents made after I left home. I rescued all of my Hornby Dublo stuff, books and magazines and some photos, but at least two 36exp films full of steam stuff from 1964/5 and my pocket book never surfaced. The other thing I never found was my Identity Card you needed to get ration books. I would have loved to go to the War weekend at Pickering and be able to produce my original one. 

[bike2steam]

On 01/04/2021 at 16:23, Pete the Elaner said:

 

 I always felt Jubilees looked similar apart from their colour, which would have been red or green in BR days.

The last crimson liveried Jubilee (5670)went into Crewe Works for overhaul, and repaint into 'dark green' in February 1951.

[pH]

3 hours ago, bike2steam said:

The last crimson liveried Jubilee (5670)went into Crewe Works for overhaul, and repaint into 'dark green' in February 1951.

 

I think there’s just punctuation missing, and it should read “ I always felt Jubilees looked similar apart from their colour, which would have been red - or green in BR days.”

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 01/04/2021 at 16:23, Pete the Elaner said:

Rebuilt Scots & Patriots all had smoke deflectors by the 1950s, with the possible exception of 6170 British Legion, which I am not sure about (the first rebuilt Scot I mentioned earlier).

......and one Rebuilt Scot, 46106, ended up with flat smoke deflectors like those fitted to the original locos, and also to the Standard Pacifics and 9Fs. But then of course 70044 as built had Westinghouse brake equipment fitted which meant that they couldn't get smoke deflectors in as well.

Confused? Wait 'til you get to the 1950s coaching stock, which is a doddle compared with the parcels trains

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 01/04/2021 at 16:23, Pete the Elaner said:

Rebuilt Scots & Patriots all had smoke deflectors by the 1950s, with the possible exception of 6170 British Legion, which I am not sure about

Photo freshly painted, outside Crewe Paint Shop, with smoke deflectors dated 24 November 1951 on the Railonline site. https://zenfolio.page.link/4G2pJ

[Pete the Elaner]

6 hours ago, pH said:

 

I think there’s just punctuation missing, and it should read “ I always felt Jubilees looked similar apart from their colour, which would have been red - or green in BR days.”

Yes & no.

Didn't some Jubilees carry BR red in later BR days?

BR steam is not really my period of interest. There are enough changes in the LMS area without getting into BR 

[pH]

9 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Didn't some Jubilees carry BR red in later BR days?

No. The only engines to carry red were some Duchesses and Princesses.

[TheSignalEngineer]

11 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Didn't some Jubilees carry BR red in later BR days?

No, only in preservation.

[TheSignalEngineer]

For outline scale drawings of locos of the period have you got this one?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Historic-Locomotive-Drawings-in-4-mm-Scale-by-Francis-Joseph-Roche-Spiral-bound/133712355444?epid=91952492&hash=item1f21e0a074:g:ihoAAOSwYgBgZzcP

 

The FJ Roche drawings have some errors but at 2mm scale they won't amount to anything serious especially if matched with photos. The LMS pages have drawings of about 10 loco types which appeared at New Street in your time period, together with a selection of appropriate tenders and detailing parts.

 

Eric

[Royal42]

Hello Eric,

I ordered that book a few days ago, as recommended by members on here, but it hasn't arrived yet.  I'm looking forward to seeing what is contained within.

cheers,

Mike

[TheSignalEngineer]

A few comments / tips about the Roche book related to New Street

 

Firstly beware of interpreting the power classifications as the LMS system went up to &P with the patriots and Jubilees coming in bigger than 5p but not good enough for LMS 6P so they were rated 5XP. When BR set up its system based on the LMS one they aadjusted the passenger side to go up to 8P which was the equivalent of LMS 7P. LMS 6P became BR 7P and 5XP became BR 6P.

 

To the individual classes:-

M/L/10 - Stanier Class 5 was one of the most common classes 

M/L/11 - 4-6-2. This was the later Ivatt version of which 2 were built. An occasional visitor 1961-64.

M/L/12 - CO-CO Diesel. 10000 and 10001 were seen quite frequently from 1956 to 1961.

M/L/13 -  Ivatt Class 2 2-6-0. A few allocated around the midlands throughout the period, turning up at New Street occasionally.

M/L/14 - 4-6-2 Non-stereamlined, seen on an almost daily basis from 1961-64 but rare visitors prior to that

M/L/15 - Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2T. Regulars on local services from the early 1950s to the coming of DMUs on local services in the late 1950s but rare after that.

M/L/18 - Rebuilt Royal Scot. Frequent visitors up to 1961/62. Smoke deflectors as noted for 6115 on drawing.

M/L/21 - Stanier 2-6-4T. Although this is the 3-cylinder version built for the LT&S out of Fenchursh St it is visually almost identical the Stanier and very similar to the later Fairburn 2-cylinder versions which were common all through your period.

M/L/22 - Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0. Common on local services on the Midland side of the station. The drawing shows the double chimney as provided on the early ones but these were soon removed and all ended up with a single chimney.

M/L/23 - Fowler 4-4-0 Compound, regulars until about 1958-9

M/L/25 - Fowler 2P 4-4-0. Although the Fowler version was not that common at New Street the earlier Johnson version which had right hand drive rather than the left hand drive of the Fowler was common on stopping trains from Gloucester in the 1950s. They were also used as the Midland side station pilot at times.

M/L/26 - Class 4F 0-6-0, appeared frequently on Midland side stopping trains especially after the demise of the 4-4-0 classes. also as Midland side pilot. A regular on the Cadbury to Water Orton vans on the Midland side around 1.30pm.

M/L/27 - Unrebuilt Royal Scot, these were all rebuilt by 1955 so would only be seen in the early 1950s. However the unrebuilt Patriots were similar visually but a bit smaller

M/L/28 - Rebuilt Jubilee. These were very similar to the Rebuilt Royal Scot and rebuilt Patriot. All were regularly seen at New Street during your period. They all gained smoke deflectors as shown for Royal Scot 6115.

 

This is the quirky one for you.

M/L/30 - ex-LNWR 0-6-2T. The 'Coal Tank'. One was regularly  used as LNW side pilot up to about 1953.

 

Now for a foreigner.

NE/L/43 B1 4-6-0. although an LNER design these were virtually daily visitors on a train from Cleethorpes in the 1950s and early 1960s. On weekdays it went empty to Kings Norton and on Summer Saturdays often worked through to Gloucester or even Bath Green Park. It was the only non-LMS class regularly seen at New Street until the coming of the BR Standards.

 

That lot should give you plenty of options to think about and enable you to do a representative selection.

 

Eric

 

[Royal42]

Hello Eric,

A representative selection?  I should think that fairly covers it!  I am looking forward to the books I ordered being delivered this week, then I shall be able to put your listing with them and get some visual comparisons.

Thanks again,

Mike

[Royal42]

On 04/04/2021 at 10:20, TheSignalEngineer said:

For outline scale drawings of locos of the period have you got this one?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Historic-Locomotive-Drawings-in-4-mm-Scale-by-Francis-Joseph-Roche-Spiral-bound/133712355444?epid=91952492&hash=item1f21e0a074:g:ihoAAOSwYgBgZzcP

Hello Eric,

the book arrived today and it is just what I am looking for, thank you for the recommendation.  I have ordered a couple of other books, again on recommendations, and so I should now have all I need to have a go at making a loco.

 

cheers,
Mike

[4901]

I have just spotted this subject.  Here are a few books that help with New Street:

*New Street Remembered, Donald J. Smith 

*London Midland Steam in the Midlands, Michael Mensing.  Several of his photos feature New Street and trains to and from it
*Birmingham New Street, Richard Foster,  3 Vols

and the magazine  - British Railways Illustrated, June-July 1993 has an article on New Street Station

 

 

 

[Royal42]

Hello 4901,

I think I have enough source material now, thanks.  I have ordered about £50 worth of books, as already recommended by members, and that is way more than my budget had catered for. 

Please keep the recommendations coming though, as I will try to find those titles at the library once it is fully open again.  As to any magazines, those might only be found at cheaply at shows.  Does anyone have a copy of that article mentioned?  Would it be possible to scan and email me a copy please?

 

cheers,
Mike

Edited April 8, 2021 by Royal42