L&Y Pug at Penmaenmawr

[009 micro modeller]

While looking at photos of the 3ft gauge system at Penmaenmawr online the other day I came across this: 

 

They seem to have identified the loco and what happened to it in the replies to the tweet, but does anyone know why it is being hauled up the incline? As far as I know the quarries only had 3ft gauge on the upper levels, not standard. I’m not inclined (pardon the pun) to doubt the location as it certainly looks right. I thought it might have been going for repair but I’m not sure why the facilities for this would be on a higher level. I hadn’t actually realised that the quarries at Penmaenmawr had their own locos to shunt the standard gauge sidings.

 

Edit: there is mention of it here, however I’m still struggling to understand how a high level standard gauge line fits into the overall system, and why it wouldn’t just be built to 3ft gauge like the rest of it: 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by 009 micro modeller

[Steamport Southport]

I seem to recall reading it was a temporary measure to work machinery.

 

It went to Fisons soon after.

 

 

Jason

[BernardTPM]

So they werent going to do a n.g. pugbash, then?

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I seem to recall reading it was a temporary measure to work machinery.

 

It went to Fisons soon after.

 

 

Jason

 

So only for static use and not to actually run? That would make sense.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

So they werent going to do a n.g. pugbash, then?

 

No - but I am tempted to model this scene using one of the Airfix/Dapol kits. If anyone says it’s unrealistic and ridiculous I can produce the picture to prove them wrong!  

[Steamport Southport]

ISTR one of the coal mines used a Pannier Tank for a while as a winding engine.

 

7722 at Pwllyrhebog Colliery 

 

I have an inkling this was something similar. Don't forget a Pug was very lightweight. Built for being able to use wagon turntables in dockyards.

 

 

Jason

Edited March 15, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[009 micro modeller]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

ISTR one of the coal mines used a Pannier Tank for a while as a winding engine.

 

I have an inkling this was something similar. Don't forget a Pug was very lightweight. Built for being able to use wagon turntables in dockyards.

 

 

Jason

 

Yes - it just seems a lot of trouble to go to, as opposed to just using one of the 3ft gauge locos, for example. Could it have ever been used (or intended for use) as a shunter for standard gauge sidings off the coast line?

 

While looking at some stuff the other day about various attempts/ideas/madcap schemes to rescue and restore the De Winton loco ‘Penmaen’ that is still in the quarry, I read about the remains of a Thornycroft lorry which were also used to drive some sort of machinery in the quarry. These were actually brought down and restored eventually although I get the impression the recovery process may have been slightly easier than it would be with Penmaen due to the difference in levels.

[Caledonian]

14 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

No - but I am tempted to model this scene using one of the Airfix/Dapol kits. If anyone says it’s unrealistic and ridiculous I can produce the picture to prove them wrong!  

 

complete with the one strong man in the photie 

[Quarryscapes]

Cannot for the life of me now find the website where this series of photos originated, but it had another view of the same incline movement of the Pug.  

[Quarryscapes]

Also as I understand it the top levels were standard gauge, supplying a mill with 3 foot down from there to the rest of the system. There were also 2 standard gauge diesels, the pug was a standby to them. 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Quarryscapes said:

Cannot for the life of me now find the website where this series of photos originated, but it had another view of the same incline movement of the Pug.  

 

That’s a great photo, especially for anyone modelling the Pug. Do we know roughly whereabouts in the quarry it was?

 

46 minutes ago, Quarryscapes said:

Also as I understand it the top levels were standard gauge, supplying a mill with 3 foot down from there to the rest of the system. There were also 2 standard gauge diesels, the pug was a standby to them. 

 

That’s extremely interesting, although in that case I find it surprising that there wasn’t a standard gauge incline connected to it (although presumably there was no need for internal standard gauge wagons to go down the hill). Having visited the old quarry site I already knew about the 3ft gauge system, which was extensive and used similar loco designs to the nearby slate quarries (Hunslets and De Wintons, but inside-framed owing to the wider gauge), and later diesels, I think latterly feeding chutes and conveyors instead of the inclines to the staithes. Was there a particular reason why a standard gauge line was needed on the upper levels? I’d always assumed that any standard gauge would be on the lower level where the main line sidings are, unless for a crane/excavator or something similar.

[Quarryscapes]

Quote

That’s a great photo, especially for anyone modelling the Pug. Do we know roughly whereabouts in the quarry it was?

 

Approx locations of photos marked with pins in the aerial photos attached. (coming over the crest could have been on the next incline up of course, hard to say exactly as these photos are considerably later than when the Pug got there in the early 30s)

 

Also, a 60s photo of that incline from the bottom....

Edited March 16, 2021 by Quarryscapes

[johnofwessex]

23 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

ISTR one of the coal mines used a Pannier Tank for a while as a winding engine.

 

7722 at Pwllyrhebog Colliery 

 

I have an inkling this was something similar. Don't forget a Pug was very lightweight. Built for being able to use wagon turntables in dockyards.

 

 

Jason

 

When the GWR rebuilt Crofton Pumping Station in about 1900 a small tank loco was hauled up to the site and used to drive a temporary pump while the work took place.

[Firecracker]

According to JIC Boyd’s ‘Narrow gauge railways in North Caernarfonshire-Vol.3’

Also a plan of the quarry(s), again Boyd.

Somewhere in this house is a book on Penmaenmawr and it’s quarries, when/if I can find it I’ll see if it’s got anything to add.
Owain

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Firecracker

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Firecracker said:

According to JIC Boyd’s ‘Narrow gauge railways in North Caernarfonshire-Vol.3’

Also a plan of the quarry(s), again Boyd.

Somewhere in this house is a book on Penmaenmawr and it’s quarries, when/if I can find it I’ll see if it’s got anything to add.
Owain

 

 

I’m sure I must have a copy of that book somewhere. I notice the plan suggests that the standard gauge lines were temporary. I still can’t quite see why this was thought to be better than using more 3ft gauge - was the standard gauge used for particularly heavy duty work?

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I notice the plan suggests that the standard gauge lines were temporary. I still can’t quite see why this was thought to be better than using more 3ft gauge - was the standard gauge used for particularly heavy duty work?

 

Perhaps the material was available cheaply?

[Quarryscapes]

All quarry lines are temporary. Standard gauge enabled a higher capacity to match the big mechanical excavators in use up there, Mill on site with very short haul trains between it and face. No wonder they reduced the height of the mountain by so much in such a short space of time. 

[Firecracker]

Right, I’ve managed to unearth the book I mentioned earlier (Penmaenmawr Rails of Granite, by Mike Hitches, Irwell press).  It didn’t add much, two standard gauge diesels being received from Avonsides in 1931,  with the pug following in 1934.  The whole lot being replaced by lorries in 1949.  Reading between the lines I’m with Quarryscapes, there’s a reference to the introduction of the lorries saving the frequent moving and relaying of the tracks (which gives you an idea of the tonnages of rock being moved).  Also the standard gauge fed the primary crusher with rock then being taken on to the mill in 3’ gauge wagons each carrying 3t, so I also wonder if the use of standard gauge was also to allow larger individual lumps of rock to be moved from the face, hence reducing blasting required and breaking up dislodged rock further at the face.

 

Owain