4 wheel PMV era?

[mikesndbs]

Hi

 

Can anyone give me a date range for the PMVs' made by Bachmann shown here?

 

Hattons say era 5 I'd like it if they were around into the late 60s?

[woodyfox]

I remember them as mess and tool vans for the cm&ee in the early 90's. Not sure when they ended revenue earning. 

[giz]

They survived in revenue earning traffic until the early 80s, blue underneath all the muck. I don't think many would have lasted in crimson until the late 60s as green came before blue. If they did they would be very dirty.

[Yardman]

They came in Crimson/Maroon and the southern ones were green. Ironically all the ones I saw up here were green. The only crimson one I saw was at Wimbledon on the Southern Region

Edited March 15, 2021 by Yardman

[The Johnster]

They were still being built into the early 50s under BR, and while there was never a standard BR van of this size (the CCT had end doors) this was very widely used and could be seen everywhere and anywhere; it was a de facto standard.  It had steam heating and could run at up to 75mph.  Pool NPCCS is not a high priority from the overhauling and repainting point of view, the work only being done when it became necessary, so it is probable that many of these vans, and the similar Southern Railway CCT, went staight from Maunsell olive green to BR crimson, or Bullied sunshine green to Southern Region green, or crimson to rail blue.  June 1948-1956, unlined crimson, 1956-1966, BR(S) green, 1966 onwards, Rail Blue.  Wooden planked NPCCS picked up dirt quickly and the livery was often academic beneath thick grime, but the numbers were wiped clean sometimes so you could see what was underneath. 

 

They lasted in revenue service until the early 80s; for a late 60s layout a filthy BR crimson, dirty BR(S) malachite green and a cleanish or pristine Rail Blue might easily appear in the same rake.  The model shown would be possible, maybe last painted in 1955, but the majority would probably be appearing in malachite, and any crimson would be very difficult to detect beneath the muck.  My ostensibly 1948-58 layout has two of them, one in dirty crimson and one very heavily weathered but with the number wiped clean to show Maunsell Southern Railway livery.  They are lovely things, well detailed and finished, and very recognisable as the vans I remember from the 50s, 60s, and my railway career in the 70s, and versatile: they can run in parcels trains, as tail traffic in passenger trains or multiple units, and at a push in goods trains as well.

 

A feature to bear in mind when weathering NPCCS is that the windows would get as filthy as the rest, but station staff would often wipe the centres of them clean to be able to see what was inside and whether it needed unloading or had space to load.  This is easy to do in model form; wash the weathering mix over the window and roughly wipe it off, not getting in to the corners, before it dries.

 

[hmrspaul]

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srpmv

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srpmvdepartmental

 

Paul

[mikesndbs]

Thanks guys, so out of the one shown in the photo or a SR green one which would look less out of place attached to a 1960s express? mind you 75MPH does not cut it really does it???

[The Johnster]

Not really, no; most main line expresses were running at 90mph by the 60s and parts  of the ECML and the 25Kv LMR electrification were good for 100.  Class 4 parcels trains were composed of 90mph bogie stock, and 75mph 4 or 6 wheel long wheelbase NPCCS such as PMVs were used, with bogie stock, in class 6 trains.  But a PMV  as s trailing load on the rear drawhook of a dmu would be perfectly acceptable.   

[IWCR]

My local preserved railway bought several of these around 1980 as they were being withdrawn from parcel traffic, all were a dirty brake dust brown.  Underneath the dirt they were blue however whilst working on them one was found to be still in BR green livery with only replaced planks and patches around the numbers painted blue.

Yes as stated earlier a very common vehicle and seen everywhere across the country, also often used as departmental vans long after the traffic used finished.

 

Pete

[Oldddudders]

13 hours ago, mikesndbs said:

Thanks guys, so out of the one shown in the photo or a SR green one which would look less out of place attached to a 1960s express? mind you 75MPH does not cut it really does it???

Whereabouts in the UK? Few expresses had such a van attached, as it implied lengthier station stops while mails and parcels were dealt with.

[phil_sutters]

I expect someone will be able to identify the class of train from the headcode - but here is one in action in 1966

[Oldddudders]

6 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

I expect someone will be able to identify the class of train from the headcode - but here is one in action in 1966

Southern headcodes indicated route not class of train. This is a Bournemouth line service, but whether fast or semi-fast isn't obvious. 

[Nearholmer]

Weren't there marshalling rules which dictated where in a train 4W vans could be placed for runs of different speeds, and different according to the WB length of the vehicle, and different at different dates? 

 

Here is photo showing one at the front of the Up 'Golden Arrow', with what I think is the luggage container wagon which was IIRC six-wheeler, but I think the photo is 1950s, rather than 1960s cited http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/dover_western_docks/index2.shtml 

 

I think the Arrow later had bogie luggage vans partly because the marshalling shown in the photo, which was essential to get the vans at the buffers at Victoria, wasn't allowed in one direction or the other at "express speed".

 

Beautiful picture of the Newhaven Boat Train in 1964 https://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=452713 with van at the country end, which must have annoyed passengers/porters at Victoria! https://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=452713

 

Referring to OD's point: of course, no intermediate stops with boat trains.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Nearholmer

[giz]

They were used in passenger trains in Scotland into the 1970s:

 

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4371300

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_of_Lochalsh_railway_station#/media/File:Kyle_of_Lochalsh_9_73407_1.jpg

 

 

[Nearholmer]

15 hours ago, mikesndbs said:

attached to a 1960s express?

 

Was the request, and its the "express" bit that I think is challenging. It wasn't only in Scotland that they were used on ordinary trains into the 1970s. They have to be pretty slow expresses, such as that Newhaven Boat train.

[Sabato]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Was the request, and its the "express" bit that I think is challenging. It wasn't only in Scotland that they were used on ordinary trains into the 1970s. They have to be pretty slow expresses, such as that Newhaven Boat train.

I spent a lot of my "spotting time" in the late 50's thru' to '67 on the SWML and it seemed to me that nearly all the steam hauled trans had a van, bogied and/or long WB 4 wheelers in the consist. Given, at the time,. the overall line speed west of New Malden was 80mph I doubt the 75mph restriction on PMVs/CCTs was much of an issue.

 

I also recall the Railway Magazine and Trains illustrated announcing yet another (one!) train being timed at 60mph average with a lot of the seasonal timetable changes. Even into the sixties they were still catching up with WW2 neglect. I don't think steam trains were timed as fast as some people think or dream about. Very high speeds tended to be exceptional rather than an everyday event

[Nearholmer]

I certainly remember the vans in trains on the SWML, especially van-loads of cut flowers from the Channel Islands on Weymouth trains. I was too young at the time to notice which were bogie and which four-wheeler, but looking at photos all the cases of four-wheelers that I’ve found so far are in ‘semis’ and ‘slows’.

 

Nice picture here, although I doubt it is a "goods train", and the caption-writer has suffered the same confusion as I did when I saw that precise loco: thinking that 'morgan le Fey' was a bloke. https://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/8535073908

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Robin Verth]

I can remember seeing a SR utility van at Clapham Junction about 1974,  there had been a minor repair to one of the windows, under the coat of grime it was impossible to ascertain the original colour of the van, the new window surround was painted green possibly to match the original paint, this was 10 years into the BR Blue era.