Passenger car options for those with tight curves

[mdvle]

So advice was recently asked in the track plan example thread * as to whether Amtrak coaches would work on 18" radius curves, I thought a more general thread might be more visible to others and easier to find in the future for anyone considering it.

 

This is HO specific - I am not familiar enough with N or O to offer suggestions.

 

The simple answer is it depends - most manufacturers seem to prefer 22" minimums for their 85' cars although some claim (with caveats like using special couplers or making modifications) that 18" radius is possible.

 

In addition to the suggestions in that thread (and which I will copy into a post following this one), it also depends on what exactly one wants in a passenger operation and how prototypical you want to be.  If you want to remain true to a post-WW2 prototype you are likely stuck with 85' cars and any limitations they have.

 

There are currently some options for those looking for passenger stuff and who don't care about era accuracy - Bachmann offers a range of late 1800 passenger cars that are much shorter than what is used today, and they also have several 72' cars from the past that may be good enough.  See starting at p88 of their 2021 catalogue - https://resources.bachmanntrains.com/bachmann2021/html5/index.html

 

For a DMU option, the mentioned elsewhere Piko unit used in California might be a good choice if the budget allows - presumably being a European model it will be designed for sharper curves than a US model (but I didn't find a minimum radius with a quick search).  Otherwise it comes down to the venerable RDC which may or may not be happy with 18" curves depending on who makes it.

 

Another possibility if willing to forgo accuracy is subway cars - I wouldn't recommend attempting to buy used MTH stuff given their unique control system but it is possible ScaleTrains will offer them again in the next several years if one is willing to be patient and roll the dice.

 

* - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/47081-track-plans-for-north-american-layouts/&do=findComment&comment=4363663

 

[mdvle]

And my reply from the other thread:

 

I don't have access currently to any of my model train stuff to try and test, but I note that Bachmann calls for 22" minimum radius for their Amtrak stuff. 

 

That said, Walthers claims that their Mainline passenger cars will work on 18" radius - https://www.walthers.com/products/passenger-car-sale-mainline

 

Rapido sort of fudges and says "with modifications" without saying what for their 8600 coaches - https://rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/passenger-cars/ho-scale-8600-coach

 

If you don't currently have any passenger stuff, and aren't looking for accuracy, then you can try looking for the older Athearn Blue Box passenger cars (long out of production) - most of the Budd stainless steel cars Athearn made in that era weren't accurate and had been shortened to 72' making them more suitable for sharper curves - though depending on where you are availability on ebay or at shows might be problematic.

 

And while not prototypical in any way, and also currently out of production (and likely never lettered for Amtrak), there is the classic "Oscar" and "Piker" from Walthers that might be a bit of fun at the right price if they can be found.

https://www.walthers.com/21-heavyweight-quot-oscar-quot-quot-piker-quot-set-ready-to-run-pullman

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Following @mdvle’s lead, I’ve also copied my post from the Track Plan thread for general reference below too.  For a thread on Passenger Operations I’d add that I’ve found Andy Sperandeo’s “MR Guide to Passenger Equipment and Operation” (Kalmbach 2006) to be very helpful if you can get a copy - more detail than some Kalmbach / MR Guides, plus some good examples of passenger consists that might be suitable for modelling (some reprinted from Model Railroader magazine I think).  As a generalisation, I find older books and magazine articles tend to assume passenger operation in a way more contemporary ones may not -  simply reflecting the prototype world around them of course.
 

“I have some old 85' cars that need at least 22" (ideally 24") or the trucks catch on the central spine of the underbody.  You'd also need to consider the couplers - whether truck mounted or body mounted they'll need to be able to reach.

I've been given a mix of full length and 'shortie'passenger cars: the problem with the shortie is that freight cars have got longer since it was made, so it looks even less realistic now.  I always find @mdvle’s knowledge of products and advice to be very helpful - if you don't have anything specific in mind all I can say is it may be difficult.  Keith.”

 

Compared to modelling UK passenger operations, I’d suggest that fitting in a passenger Depot can be easier (platforms are not a universal requirement) but the length of the passenger cars is the challenge.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Compared to modelling UK passenger operations, I’d suggest that fitting in a passenger Depot can be easier (platforms are not a universal requirement) but the length of the passenger cars is the challenge

Certainly agree with that - how many of us who model US freight-only ops still manage to squeeze in an 'old time' Depot building on our layouts? Guilty as charged, M'lud, albeit re-purposed as the Company or yard Office, of course.

It's a way of representing 'past glory' or history on a layout, made far easier than on a UK layout where passenger platforms are high and long, even at smaller stations.

[dave1905]

The US had a lot of shorter coaches, primarily on local and commuter trains.  The PRR had more P70 coaches than the ATSF had of all types of passenger cars combined.  A P70 coach was 70 ft between the interior vestibule partitions.  The PRR also had older P54 coaches (some of which were electrified and made into MP54 commuter cars) that were 54 ft inside.  The Athearn heavyweight coaches are the right length for some RDG and CNJ coaches (although they should have 4 wheel trucks).

 

If you model a local or secondary train you can get shorter cars.  The problem everybody wants to model the "name trains" with the 85 ft cars.

[stivesnick]

For N gauge modellers, Atlas produce a range of 60 foot older cars, ideal for local train service. 

 

On a previous american layout, I used some Kato japanese coaches with some Great Northern decals. No one appeared to notice and they looked much better on 9-12 inch radius curves.

 

Nick 

[mdvle]

So further to Dave's informative post, there are models of the PRR P70 and P54 available.

 

The P70 could still be problematic - it is only 5' shorter at 80' but that might be enough depending on the model.  Made in HO and N by Broadway Limited Imports.

 

The P54 is 65' long, so likely more suitable for a layout with sharp curves or wanting more cars per train.  Con-Cor makes the P54, though I am unfamiliar with the quality level of what Con-Cor makes.  They also appear to do the MP54 rebuilt cars, calling them MUmP54, for those that want overhead electric.

[Skinnylinny]

21 hours ago, mdvle said:

Rapido sort of fudges and says "with modifications" without saying what for their 8600 coaches - https://rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/passenger-cars/ho-scale-8600-coach

Having looked at the manual that comes with the 8600 coaches, the modification needed seems to just be swapping out a coupler (included in the box): https://rapidotrains.com/sites/default/files/2016/07/17-Instructions-Web-1.pdf

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear RMWebbers,

 

In the spirit of "know the rules before you break 'em", I fully accept that running MU'd 6-axle SDs and GEs and 85' Amtrak cars in HO really does want 22" or larger radii...

 

...however, I have a future show-layout application pending where the "mainline passing-parade" will be an adjunct to the main-game,
they need to "roll by slowly in the background" along a 8' scene,

and then turn-n-burn "backstage" in as-compact-a-space-as-possible to save exhibition stand space,
and minimise the ammount of "stuff" needed to transport to/from the show, and set-up/teardown at same...

 

Soooo, with the full range of:
- eliminating Kadees on fixed-rakes of Amtrak stock
(they will always run together, in the same train, in the same consist order)
- loosing "self centring" and any other "coupler swing limiting" mechanisms on affected fixed-rake trains
- truck-pivot-point talgo'd draftgear
- metal wheels + graphite
- and massively simplified underbody running-gear
(which will be all-but-invisible at viewing-height + distance)
- sympathetic scene-design and designed-in integrated viewblocking
(so the screamingly-tight curves are strictly "backstage", all on-scene running will be tangent and "scale sized curves" ;-) ),

 

tricks/tools at disposal, I have the intent of bending such trains around 18", if not tighter (15"? maybe?)...

 

...we'll see, I gotta get the current layout build done first... ;-)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aiming to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr
 

[Barry Ten]

Kato N scale passenger cars are really happy on 11" curves, and I think they'll go tighter.

[Railpassion]

Yes, I've two places where I'm using 18 inch curves:  the reversing loop and one tight corner on the upper level. If I can widen the curves on the upper level to 22" I should be OK as the passenger cars can stand in a siding whilst the loco turns on the loop. 

If only US makers made passenger cars like the European ones which can turn on 18" curves if needed. Is it a blind spot?

 

 

[mdvle]

6 hours ago, Railpassion said:

If only US makers made passenger cars like the European ones which can turn on 18" curves if needed. Is it a blind spot?

 

Guesswork, based on observation and a interest in both UK modelling and North American.

 

Exclude the shunting planks/motive power depot layouts.

 

If you have a room/loft/shed layout in Europe then you are probably modelling passenger trains with a bit of goods/freight thrown in for variety - a reflection that for most of the time since WW2 the railways of Europe have been passenger operations.  This means any models need to have the necessary compromises to work on smaller radius curves that are so frequently necessary.

 

North America was very different.  A lot of passenger stuff disappeared from the branch line network with the end of steam or shortly into the early diesel era - leaving those as freight only.

 

And unlike Europe, while a lot of freight disappeared in the diesel era the US railroads were eventually able to pivot and become very successful freight operations.

 

At the same time, Amtrak was formed to take over the money losing passenger operations and it didn't take long for much of the passenger timetable to be cut leaving a minimalist service.

 

So unlike Europe, for most people modelling North American railroads they are modelling freight.

 

This seriously limits the market for passenger car models - which means they are aimed at those who are taking passenger modelling very seriously and they want accuracy over 18" radius operation.  Because if you don't have the space for larger curves, you simply don't model passenger stuff...

[jasond]

In O-scale: if all the long (80ft) cars you run are modelled as 70ft-ers like MTH (and Lionel?) have done, you may not notice.  Mixing them with scale length cars may spoil the effect for you.  The couplers are the main worry.  For a fixed consist you don't need Kadees, although their side-swing helps a lot (and no buffers to lock up).  Fixed knuckle couplers (I've got some spare) mounted on a flat piece screwed to the floor back towards the truck king-pin may help.

Jason