lather Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 I've been looking for information about the Tartan Arrow liveried CCTs and BGs, specifically what brakes they were fitted with, but can't find anything anywhere. I know that, normally, CCTs were vacuum-fitted, and haven't found any references to any of them being air- or dual-braked. However, on the Tartan Arrow services, they were running with Freightliner flats which, with the exception of the few modified as FGBs for the mixed services in Scotland, were all air-braked only. The Tartan Arrow was a class 4 service (although the 7/10/68 to 4/5/69 London to Wellingborough WTT I have gives the headcode as 3S47 down and 3M47 up...), which meant that the brakes had to be active on all vehicles. For that to happen, either the Freightliner flats needed to have a vacuum through-pipe in addition to their air-brakes (making them FFBs and FGBs), or the CCTs and BG needed to be either air-or dual-braked. As the aforementioned WTT lists the 3S47 Freightliner to Glasgow Bridgeton and 3M47 Freightliner from Glasgow Bridgeton "Tartan Arrow" services as air-braked company trains, it would seem to indicate that the vans were all air- or dual-braked. Can anyone confirm that? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 Known 'Tartan Arrow' liveried CCT vans included:- 94151, 94170, 94172, 94177, 94196, 94212, 94229, 94246, 94290, 94304, 94371, 94384, 94418, 94454, 94711, 94772, 94808, 94845, 94868, 94872, 94911. . There may be some information on the fitting of air brakes in the R.O. for the 1960s / 1970s, I'll have a quick flick thro' . Brian R 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted March 18, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2021 I believe they were dual braked, some of the CCT's have survived into preservation fortuitously, and pictures show the pipoework on the buffer beam. Just for clarification too, the bogie vans were the ex LMS style, and I've often wondered if there is a correlation between the vans used in the early days of Freightliners and Tartan Arrow vans, as both would need to be air brake fitted. Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 This thread has some info https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92962-midland-main-line-20th-march-1967/ with mentions of dual-braked vans 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lather Posted March 21, 2021 Author Share Posted March 21, 2021 Thanks for the replies. Dual-braked certainly makes the most sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 (edited) Hi Lather, The flat wagons were not the FGA-FFA type but may have been the vacuum braked bogie wagons previously used for the Condor service that was discontinued after the introduction of Freightliner trains. The below photograph suggests a wagon of around fifty feet in length as it has a 30' and a 20' box mounted upon it. The larger diameter wheels and the wagon's higher sole bar level may be the reason for the special shouldered boxes also. Here is a link to the tye of bogie wagon used by the Condor service and it looks very similar to the wagons in the above photograph. http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10134.htm Gibbo. Edited March 21, 2021 by Gibbo675 Adding Link 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 These are the same as the SRPS wagon https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bogiecondor Paul 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markw Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 But I think they are being used to deliver the new containers before the service started, and the FFA/FGA were used when it did. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downsman John Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 In the 1976 edition of 'The Coaching Stock of British Railways' by the RCTS, all CCT's are listed as vacuum braked & steam piped, including those listed above by br2975 (with the exception of 94196 - not listed, presumably withdrawn). None at that time were shown as dual or air braked. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted March 21, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Downsman John said: In the 1976 edition of 'The Coaching Stock of British Railways' by the RCTS, all CCT's are listed as vacuum braked & steam piped, including those listed above by br2975 (with the exception of 94196 - not listed, presumably withdrawn). None at that time were shown as dual or air braked. John ISTR the dual braked ones got snapped up by the various engineering etc departments quite early on, that maybe is the reason they weren't still in capital stock. Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 I caught a glimpse of a container that looked to have once been in tartan arrow livery. It had iso corners top and bottom. Is this likely? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 (edited) This may be of interest, from a book published in 1968. Edit: or it might be the 1971 edition... Edited December 5, 2021 by Mol_PMB 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Covkid Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 On 21/03/2021 at 18:11, Downsman John said: In the 1976 edition of 'The Coaching Stock of British Railways' by the RCTS, all CCT's are listed as vacuum braked & steam piped, including those listed above by br2975 (with the exception of 94196 - not listed, presumably withdrawn). None at that time were shown as dual or air braked. John I have replied to a posting on another forum (WNXX) which was querying the Tarton Arrow vehicles. I turned to David Larkin's wonderful publications and found photos of M94170 and M94229 with two pipe air connections on their buffer beams. This suggests that at least two of the Tartan Arrow vans, and probably all, were modified with dual brakes to work with air braked container flats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ISW Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 On 18/03/2021 at 07:24, br2975 said: Known 'Tartan Arrow' liveried CCT vans included:- 94151, 94170, 94172, 94177, 94196, 94212, 94229, 94246, 94290, 94304, 94371, 94384, 94418, 94454, 94711, 94772, 94808, 94845, 94868, 94872, 94911. On 21/03/2021 at 18:11, Downsman John said: In the 1976 edition of 'The Coaching Stock of British Railways' by the RCTS, all CCT's are listed as vacuum braked & steam piped, including those listed above by br2975 (with the exception of 94196 - not listed, presumably withdrawn). None at that time were shown as dual or air braked. According to the 1974 edition of 'The Coaching Stock of British Railways' by the RCTS, 94711 was dual brake fitted, the only CCT to be so noted. Here's a photo of CCT M94229 from 1972 in Tartan Arrow livery: Ian 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRShortlandsStation Posted July 22, 2023 Share Posted July 22, 2023 I’m very much hoping to model a typical ‘Tartan Arrow’ train during its latter years, & would love to know rake configuration so that I can acquire the correct quantity for THE BUFFERS exhibition layout here in Canada hopefully in time for the 2024 GREAT BRITISH TRAIN SHOW in Brampton. So could anyone out there please describe the usual locomotive classes, quantity of CCTs, & ex-LMS BGs, etc.in their order from top to tail if at all at all possible? many thanks! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted November 21, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2023 I'll put this here, as I've just come accross it. The Tartan Arrow CCTs fitted with air brakes were 94151/72/97, 94212/29/46, 94384, 94454, 94772, 94845/72 (11). From the list quoted above all carried Tartan Arrow livery except 94197. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean the Bob Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 On 22/07/2023 at 15:04, BRShortlandsStation said: I’m very much hoping to model a typical ‘Tartan Arrow’ train during its latter years, & would love to know rake configuration so that I can acquire the correct quantity for THE BUFFERS exhibition layout here in Canada hopefully in time for the 2024 GREAT BRITISH TRAIN SHOW in Brampton. So could anyone out there please describe the usual locomotive classes, quantity of CCTs, & ex-LMS BGs, etc.in their order from top to tail if at all at all possible? many thanks! Did you ever find out what the typical consist for this would be? I recently picked up a couple of CCTs and an ex-LMS BG and would be interested to know what else I'd need to make up a prototypical train! Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 How about this? From Nick Joynson on Flickr: I think I have some photos of the Tartan Arrow container terminal in one of the Jane’s books too. 9 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Elsewhere on Flickr, maybe of interest: From John Turner: From Robert Forsythe: 10 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 On 21/11/2023 at 17:54, stovepipe said: I'll put this here, as I've just come accross it. The Tartan Arrow CCTs fitted with air brakes were 94151/72/97, 94212/29/46, 94384, 94454, 94772, 94845/72 (11). From the list quoted above all carried Tartan Arrow livery except 94197. There were 23 CCTs and 4 LMS BGs that were dual braked that would have worked the Tartan Arrow services not all in Tartan Arrow livery. CCTs numbers 94151,70/1/27, 94212/29/46/90, 94304/71/84, 94418/52/4, 94711/3/72, 94808/45/67/8/72, 94911. BGs 31368/82/9, 31409. Al Taylor 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted December 12, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2023 14 hours ago, 45125 said: There were 23 CCTs and 4 LMS BGs that were dual braked that would have worked the Tartan Arrow services not all in Tartan Arrow livery. CCTs numbers 94151,70/1/27, 94212/29/46/90, 94304/71/84, 94418/52/4, 94711/3/72, 94808/45/67/8/72, 94911. BGs 31368/82/9, 31409. Al Taylor My list was from a report in the Railway Observer, detailing which vehicles were dual braked and in Tartan Arrow livery - with the one exception. According to the RCTS coaching stock book, there's a typo in your list the 23 CCTs were 94151/70/2/7, 94212/29/46/90, 94304/71/84, 94418/52/4, 94711/3/72, 94808/45/67/8/72, 94911. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 3 hours ago, stovepipe said: My list was from a report in the Railway Observer, detailing which vehicles were dual braked and in Tartan Arrow livery - with the one exception. According to the RCTS coaching stock book, there's a typo in your list the 23 CCTs were 94151/70/2/7, 94212/29/46/90, 94304/71/84, 94418/52/4, 94711/3/72, 94808/45/67/8/72, 94911. That's okay it was just a typo. Most of those ended up as modified with chains after use on Tartan Arrow work, all bar one appear to have reverted to vac braking, the one that remained dual braked (94711) by 1976 had become vac braked when fitted with chains. All the BG(B) by 74 had all become vac only and according to the RCTS list by 1976 some had the gangways refitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 I've re-checked my copies of 'Jane's Freight Containers' and Tartan Arrow appears in the 1970-71 and 1971-72 editions. The relevant content is the same in both editions, and the same that I posted in this thread in December 2021 before all the pixels vanished into a black hole. The two images show the London terminal and are mostly focused on the containers, flat wagons and crane (there's quite a variety of containers). One image shows a long train of at least 7 FFA/FGA and beyond in the far distance a rake of vans is just discernable. So probably not much more help to this post. Mol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 I found my old scan of the Tartan Arrow containers image, so I'll re-post it in case people are interested. One thing it does illustrate (in conjunction with the pics above) is the wide variety of Tartan Arrow containers, various different lengths, shapes, lettering styles etc. The chamfered-corner boxes seem to be mostly 30' long, ISO-compatible boxes in both 20' and 30' are visible, but according to the fleet list they also had 10' versions. Also, note the 30' ISO being lifted from the bottom corners, using a crane spreader that looks like it might be able to lift a 20' ISO directly? So for the OP, you need a set of FFA/FGA with a right old mix of boxes! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean the Bob Posted December 15, 2023 Share Posted December 15, 2023 Thanks all for the replies, sounds like it was a bit of a mixed bag all round! Picked up another 2 CCT vans for cheap but might see if I can pick up some FFA/FGAs and do some creative painting with the containers. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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