Jump to content
 

Track going filthy overnight


Recommended Posts

There are various alternatives to PVA, for ballasting you have the choice of Klear

(now called Johnsons floor polish) or Copydex.

For fixing lead, as a weight in locos, either UHU, or cheap super-glue.

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jcm@gwr said:

There are various alternatives to PVA, for ballasting you have the choice of Klear

(now called Johnsons floor polish) or Copydex.

For fixing lead, as a weight in locos, either UHU, or cheap super-glue.

 

I have used PVA, Klear and Copydex for ballasting. I found Copydex goes brown after a year or so which is OK if you want scruffy ballast

Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Not sure I agree with that.

 

Damp Proof Courses (DPC) have been in use for many, many, many years, well before double glazing and higher standards of insulation. My parent's house was built in the 1950s and had a bitumen strip damp proof course. There wasn't much double glazing around in the UK then as far as I know. An alternative to a bitumen DPC is a course or three of the dark blue/blackish impermeable engineering bricks included in the masonry.

 

The object of the DPC is to be an impenetrable barrier to water in the soil around the foundations being drawn up into the brickwork by capillary action. Once water gets into brickwork, any plaster on the inside will also become damp and start to flake or bubble. In Winter, freezing weather can cause the damp in the brick to freeze and the freezing can cause the exterior surface of the brick to crumble away, it's called "spalling", weakening the load carrying capacity and strength of the brick.  Additionally, if the damp gets into brickwork upon which floor joists are resting the damp can get into the timber, and start to rot the timber, resulting in the floor collapsing.

 

So I'd never say that a DPC wasn't needed. If you're referring to folks' walls being injected with a chemical DPC at or near ground level, that will have been remedial work necessary to remedy a failing DPC making itself known by bubbling or flaking plaster just above floor or skirting board at floor level, and confirmed with a moisture content meter.

 

Bubbling or flaking plaster at the bottom of a wall is usually caused by damp in the wall due to the failure of the DPC, not condensation. Water on the surface of a wall or black mould will normally be caused by excessive humidity and condensation or possibly water ingress through a crack in a wall or roof tile letting rainwater into the building. The black mould tends to form at the bottom of walls as that's where the condensation droplets run down to, particularly in showers and bathrooms.

 

But some people do have condensation problems of their own making. I know someone who lives in a flat, who told me a tale about their downstairs neighbour knocking on their door one cold Winter's afternoon and complaining that water was running down their walls from a burst pipe in the storyteller's flat. The storyteller went downstairs to see what was happening so that they knew where to start looking for the problem in their own flat if tha twas indeed the source of the water. When they went into the flat below theirs the heat and humidity hit them like a wall, and the room with the problem, which was nowhere near any of the pipe runs, had condensation running down an outside wall from ceiling level. There were no burst pipes, just excessive heat and humidity and no ventilation, with the result that condensation was forming on the coldest wall in the flat in such volumes that droplets of water were forming and running down the wall.

 

We'll have to agree to differ on DPCs.

 

Progress though....

 

20210321_171403.jpg.01b274bf4935b635d830f39f4dc1c749.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Clagmeister said:

 

We'll have to agree to differ on DPCs.

 

True, but if you don't believe me I suggest that you read up on damp proof courses, and you'll see that what I've said is correct. You may not believe it, but your home, and everybody else's home in the UK will have a DPC if it was constructed in the last 146 years, as it has been a legal requirement from 1875 for new buildings to have one. 

Edited by GoingUnderground
  • Like 1
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

They don't have them in Holland as they don't believe rising damp can occur and I'm inclined to agree.  Industry standards are proof of nothing.  The idea of injecting a chemical into sandstone for example in a solid wall house to fix damp is lunacy!  I've seen these cowboys selling this nonsense for years and it makes no difference whatsoever.  Take all the cement off, plaster with lime and let the house breathe.  Absolutely do not put 200mm of insulation on the roof if you don't want to kill and old house.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Clagmeister said:

They don't have them in Holland as they don't believe rising damp can occur and I'm inclined to agree.  Industry standards are proof of nothing.  The idea of injecting a chemical into sandstone for example in a solid wall house to fix damp is lunacy!  I've seen these cowboys selling this nonsense for years and it makes no difference whatsoever.  Take all the cement off, plaster with lime and let the house breathe.  Absolutely do not put 200mm of insulation on the roof if you don't want to kill and old house.

You seem to be concentrating on chemical damp proof courses injected to remedy an existing damp problem and it will be difficult to ensure that there is and adequate spread of the material through the wall to a sufficient thickness to ensure that a fully contiguous impermeable barrier is created throughout the wall. And I agree that sandstone, because of its more porous nature than brick will be more problematical.

 

Your argument against DPCs seems to be more about the mis-selling of chemical damp proofing for houses built without a physical barrier where applying a chemical DPC will be difficult as they are more likely to have solid 9 inch or thicker walls. I'm talking about a physical barrier such as engineering brick, slate, bitumen, or plastic sheet inserted at the time of construction of a building with a cavity wall. There are plenty of cowboys offering to ashphalt driveways, but that doesn't make ashphalt a bad material for making driveways and footpaths.   

  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes chemical damp treatment and fixed barriers are different.

 

Anyway big progress, home after work today

 

Thanks for all the responses and ideas, sometimes you just can't see the answer even though its right in front of your face.

 

20210322_183657.jpg.41d7f335a31b4518c0d403f19f7588c3.jpg

 

 

The track is showing signs of fewer black spots now too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

It's currently 17 deg and 80% RH in my garden/railway room and that is typical, (sometimes the RH is higher) but my track doesn't tarnish (Peco n/s)

It is double glazed and twin walled with some shiny bubbly insulation fixed inside the gap (original ,done by the company that made and erected it)

Link to post
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Clagmeister said:

They don't have them in Holland as they don't believe rising damp can occur and I'm inclined to agree.  Industry standards are proof of nothing.  The idea of injecting a chemical into sandstone for example in a solid wall house to fix damp is lunacy!  I've seen these cowboys selling this nonsense for years and it makes no difference whatsoever.  Take all the cement off, plaster with lime and let the house breathe.  Absolutely do not put 200mm of insulation on the roof if you don't want to kill and old house.

My Dear Michael,

 

You just calm yourself !!!

 

If the authorities and those that are both compliant and subservient to those authorities suspect that you are capable of thinking for yourself then you sir are a danger to public safety !

 

We all know what happened to Иван Денисович now don't we ?

 

gaCVA2Ul_400x400.jpg.4afc91a461656592cfa5ef8d026e7860.jpg

С 854

 

I have lived in two solid wall sandstone houses, both built before damp proof courses were used in building, and after getting rid of all the cement pointing and gypsum plaster they both became warm and dry. Miraculously the "rising damp" just went away, as if by magic !

 

Гиббо

  • Like 1
  • Funny 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Anybody else getting adverts on their page for an Independent Damp Surveying company?  I don't know whether its from what i've previously typed or that the cookies have 'read' the page. 

 

If it's the latter, has anybody else had a problem with Holly Willoughby coming in their train room?  Does Holly Willoughby cause staining on the track?  ;)

 

Edited by Ouroborus
  • Craftsmanship/clever 1
  • Funny 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 21/03/2021 at 15:21, jcm@gwr said:

There are various alternatives to PVA, for ballasting you have the choice of Klear

(now called Johnsons floor polish) or Copydex.

 

Recently I have seen suggestions for using powdered Cascamite mixed with ballast, placed in position and lightly sprayed with water. Seems like a good idea, but I haven't had a chance to try it.

 

I have fixed track with PVA and placed weights (books) on top to hold in position while setting. The rails tarnish, but the tarnish wipes off the surface leaving no contact difficulty and the sides of the rail are effectively darkened.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
23 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

True, but if you don't believe me I suggest that you read up on damp proof courses, and you'll see that what I've said is correct. You may not believe it, but your home, and everybody else's home in the UK will have a DPC if it was constructed in the last 146 years, as it has been a legal requirement from 1875 for new buildings to have one. 

Mmm.

Our slate built house in Keswick didn't have a DPC (or much in the way of foundations) and that had rising damp and was built post 1875.

The House my parents had in Birmingham, built post 1900 didn't have one either and that also had rising damp.

My father had one put in (slate inserted after a section of mortar had been raked out and done progressively, both inside & out.

My current house was built in 1960 and has a slate DPC and cavity walls.

It also suffered from rising damp. We had the walls injected at DPC level and the plaster replaced internally.

Little sign of rising damp now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have some rising damp in my brick built garage, about 6 feet worth. THE DPC in that area is defunct. A friend had a similar problem with his old single brick porch wall. He fixed it by installing dryrod so no damp now. I am going to try it on my garage. There is also horizontal moving damp from an adjacent butting wall that seems to have been back filled years ago so I will try the dryrod vertically as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Derekl said:

Recently I have seen suggestions for using powdered Cascamite mixed with ballast


Recently?

 

That was the standard method before PVA was invented!

 

I thought that all the Cascamites had been ground-up and forgotten long ago.

  • Funny 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

It's currently 17 deg and 80% RH in my garden/railway room and that is typical, (sometimes the RH is higher) but my track doesn't tarnish (Peco n/s)


If it keeps that warm, it won’t, even though that is pretty blooming humid.

 

If the temperature now falls to dew point, a surprisingly high 13.5 degrees, and you keep the air nice and stagnant, you will probably be able to initiate tarnishing.

 

 


 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

It's currently 17 deg and 80% RH in my garden/railway room and that is typical, (sometimes the RH is higher) but my track doesn't tarnish (Peco n/s)

It is double glazed and twin walled with some shiny bubbly insulation fixed inside the gap (original ,done by the company that made and erected it)

 

Wonder why it doesn't tarnish??  That is higher than any readings I have had and is really wet.  How is your ventilation?

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

My Dear Michael,

 

You just calm yourself !!!

 

If the authorities and those that are both compliant and subservient to those authorities suspect that you are capable of thinking for yourself then you sir are a danger to public safety !

 

We all know what happened to Иван Денисович now don't we ?

 

gaCVA2Ul_400x400.jpg.4afc91a461656592cfa5ef8d026e7860.jpg

С 854

 

I have lived in two solid wall sandstone houses, both built before damp proof courses were used in building, and after getting rid of all the cement pointing and gypsum plaster they both became warm and dry. Miraculously the "rising damp" just went away, as if by magic !

 

Гиббо

 

Like the signature

 

Proof.....

 

damp.jpg.85190912a112c37d5c3dae123e0db7cc.jpg

 

If rising damp were a thing it would be right up the wall.

 

неуклюжий

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:


If it keeps that warm, it won’t, even though that is pretty blooming humid.

 

If the temperature now falls to dew point, a surprisingly high 13.5 degrees, and you keep the air nice and stagnant, you will probably be able to initiate tarnishing.

 

It'll probably drop to about 5C overnight in there.

I'll check the max/min tomorrow morning and the RH.

7 minutes ago, Clagmeister said:

 

Wonder why it doesn't tarnish??  That is higher than any readings I have had and is really wet.  How is your ventilation?

Zero ventilation, except when I open the door to get in or out, unless the trickle vents on the windows actually work.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If it drops to 5 degrees, with no ventilation, I'd expect you to have thick fog in there in the morning!

45 minutes ago, Clagmeister said:

If rising damp were a thing it would be right up the wall.

 

Well it is on the wall on the RHS, isn't it? And, isn't the wall on the left on a concrete foundation that extends a few inches above current water level?

 

While we are on damp and old buildings: one things that was done with timber-framed buildings, some of which were direct on the dirt, with no foundation at all, was to dig a quite deep trench round the building, at eaves-distance, and fill it with rubble/pebbles etc. This acts as a drain for drip from the eaves, and, if its done right, drops the water table in the soil that the building is standing on. I helped build a replica cottage about thirty years ago at a heritage site, and was amazed by how effective this drainage method was - the building is still there, and the timbers at the base of the frame haven't decayed away. Here it is last year, in a blog from someone who clearly isn't quite sure about it (We did used to live in it for weeks at a time!) https://www.28dayslater.co.uk/threads/holdenby-house-witches-cottage-may-20.123213/

Edited by Nearholmer
  • Like 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

If it drops to 5 degrees, with no ventilation, I'd expect you to have thick fog in there in the morning!

 

 

8C and 88% RH this morning at 0900 it had been down to 7 degrees.

Overnight outside it had dropped to 0.4C and 96%RH

 

I also had a look at the track.

Some that had no trains over them in the last few weeks had minor (very minor) tarnish marks on the raihead, those that had trains within the last week were still shiny.

Link to post
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Clagmeister said:

 

Like the signature

 

Proof.....

 

damp.jpg.85190912a112c37d5c3dae123e0db7cc.jpg

 

If rising damp were a thing it would be right up the wall.

 

неуклюжий

Rising damp is very much a 'thing' I can assure you. I have seen enough older properties with defective or bridged DPC to confirm that moisture can rise as much as a metre above ground level. What you are looking at on that wall is algae not the damp itself, and it probably needs very damp conditions, but if you were to jab the prongs of a moisture meter into that wall further up where it looks OK it would still be damp. But your shed should respond well to ventilation. As others have said, a bathroom type extractor with adjustable humidistat so it comes on when the humidity rises should do the job. As long as there isn't much moisture in the air temperature should not be a problem - my loft has been known to go down to zero overnight and everything still works in the morning because it's modern and well-ventilated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Recently?

 

That was the standard method before PVA was invented!

 

It is on the sister site - World of Railways, so I suppose recent advice, although I was aware of it. I see Cascamite is freely available. I thought of using it on the basis that it would not have the noise transfer properties of solid PVA.

 

More on topic, although I am not sure if it helps: indoors here is 20 degrees, 49% RH, outside 10 degrees, 72% RH, in my shed 8 degrees, 63% RH. I have an oil-filled heater in the shed, but am not using it at present.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
On 21/03/2021 at 16:21, jcm@gwr said:

There are various alternatives to PVA, for ballasting you have the choice of Klear

(now called Johnsons floor polish) or Copydex.

I understood that Copydex was said to have an advantage over PVA in that it retains a certain amount of elasticity, rather than setting hard. 

  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...