Coach identification help please - LMS & constituents

[Mol_PMB]

Hello!

 

I have photographs of a few coaches believed to be of LMS origin, and/or LMS constituents. I'd like to model one or more of these, but in some cases I'm struggling to identify the diagram, let alone find a suitable kit. Can anyone help?

 

Vehicle 1 is an elliptical-roofed ex-L&Y vehicle, described as fireproof so presumably steel-bodied. Photo from Don Thorpe's book on the MSC Railway. I have no number. I can see similar but not identical examples on the LYRS website. Which diagram is this, and is there a kit available in 7mm scale?

 

Vehicle 2 is an ex-LMS non-gangwayed 50' brake third apparently once numbered 22209. I have the Jenkinson&Essery books on LMS coaches but have failed on this one, even with a number. Can anyone give me any pointers?

Link to an image here; I have purchased a copy for personal use but cannot post my copy here.

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/industrial-and-light/industrial-steam/other/ea879595a

Any ideas on identification and are there any kits available in 7mm scale that might be a good starting point?

 

Vehicle 3 still exists and I know it is a Midland Railway diagram 529 brake. Photo from Don Thorpe's book on the MSC Railway.

But, is there a kit available in 7mm scale? If not, are there any kits for something similar that would provide a starting point, even I was to scratchbuild new sides?

To be honest this is the one I'm most keen to model as it's the smallest, but I might go for one of the others if the availability of a kit makes them easier.

 

Vehicle 4 also still exists (just) and I know it is an LMS Period 1 TO Diagram 1745, number 7991. Thanks to @Marshall5 for this photo. Again, is there a kit available in 7mm scale? My understanding is that there were some subtle differences between different lots of this diagram but I'm just looking for a starting point.

 

Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Mol

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[65179]

Longworth has the LMS 2220X number series as Midland Railway diagram 556. A Bain (?) arc roofed 50' non-corridor brake third.  That seems to accord with the picture you linked to.

 

Simon

[Mol_PMB]

10 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Longworth has the LMS 2220X number series as Midland Railway diagram 556. A Bain (?) arc roofed 50' non-corridor brake third.  That seems to accord with the picture you linked to.

 

Simon

Many thanks Simon, much appreciated.

That one is quite an attractive vehicle, withdrawn a couple of years before my model period but I could invoke Rule 1. 

 

Now I know what I am looking for I have located 7mm scale offerings for Bain arc-roofed coaches from Midland Carriage Works and Worsley Works, though neither do D556. I’ll keep looking. 

 

Cheers,

Mol

[Wickham Green too]

Worsley, at least, will do whatever you want - within reason - if he's done something similar as a starting point ........... you might have to wait, tho'.

[Jub45565]

Hi Mol,

 

The best starting point for a D1745 might be the D1692/9.

 

Photo of the 4mm sides from Comet here:

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/m4s/

 

and is in the sidelines list for a 7mm version:

http://www.sidelinescoaches.co.uk/lms.htm

 

It has less beading than the D1745, but that may well have been an alteration over time rather than a diagram difference. I'm separated from my LMS coaching stock books at the moment so can't immediately look up the differences.

 

Cheers,

Pete

[Mol_PMB]

Hi Pete,

Many thanks, that's very helpful, both the fact the Sidelines make something similar and also the link to an image of the Comet sides.

I think the D1745 was a steel-bodied version and didn't have the beading - it was just painted on. A possible solution might be to get a new set of sides custom-etched without the beading, but to use everything else from a Sidelines kit. Do you have experience of the Sidelines kits?

 

According to Don Thorpe's book, the MSC had two similar coaches of this type, Dock Labour Coach No.2 and Dock Labour Coach No.3. No.2 was scrapped in 1965 but No.3 survived until preservation in 1972 (sadly it is now in a terrible state).

It's possible that No.2 might have been a beaded one, it depends on the meaning of 'similar'! It might have been even more different.

I have only found two photos so far, here is the other one, but they may both be No.3:

 

Dock Labour Coach No.1 was the Midland D556 discussed above. These vehicles were used for moving dock workers to the various quays around the MSC system, wherever a ship needed unloading. It was a few miles from Salford to Irwell Park and Partington so it made sense to move them by train.

 

In contrast, the MR 4-wheel brake was used as the Cashier's coach on the weekly pay train around the system.

The L&Y coach seems to have been an engineers' mess coach; on the MSC the engineers were responsible for maintenance of the canal equipment (locks, sluices etc) as well as the railway, and with this being distributed along many miles of canal it made sense to travel by train and take a mess room with you.

 

Any of them could plausibly appear on my little piece of the MSC Railway through route, as a change to the usual trucks.

[65179]

Vehicle 1 might be a L&Y Diagram 129 open third with the end gangways removed. Again going from the small diagram in Hugh Longworth's Pre-Nationalisation Coaching Stock Vol.2. It is shown with the longer wheelbase bogies apparently shown in your picture.  That said that can only be true if the last survivor shown here on the RCTS site had also been much altered at some point : 

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/lmsr/other/ea8701c23

 

Simon

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Simon, that does generally look like a good match, though the RCTS photo is from the other side of the vehicle I think (based on window arrangement and battery box position).

But as you say, there is a substantial difference at the ends: on the RCTS photo they are both glazed as if this is an observation car or inspection saloon, whereas the MSC coach has more normal ends.

Thanks again for giving me a diagram number and reference to look up.

Cheers,

Mol

[65179]

According to the diagram in the book they were built gangwayed and the small window at the end on the side in the RCTS was originally where the one toilet was. Thus the window arrangement is the same as the diagram. I think the one in the RCTS photo has had a fairly major rebuild of the ends at some stage which may explain why it outlasted the others by several years. Sadly I don't have a book on L&Y coaches to confirm.

 

Simon

[Mol_PMB]

I have just found this which confirms that the L&Y coach matches the layout of Diagram 129:

https://www.lyrs.org.uk/images/uploads/LYR_Carriage_Diagram_Book.pdf

Sadly it doesn't look like there has ever been a kit for these, and the only kits for similar vehicles were in the Chowbent range which is no longer available.

 

It seems the MSC Railway didn't choose their second-hand coaches with the future modeller in mind!

I can maybe see a way towards one of the dock labour coaches though. Looking through my books I found this drawing in Jenkinson's 'British Railway Carriages of the 20th Century (vol 2).

This is exactly the type of MSC Dock Labour Coach No.3, even the same batch from the same supplier. So I could potentially get some custom sides etched based on these drawings, and fit them to a Sidelines kit for the wooden-bodied version.

It would make an interesting model, an LMS coach in green livery!

 

 

[65179]

Good to know my inference wasn't complete nonsense!

 

Simon

[Compound2632]

I'm curious to know how that D529 came by its long window and what appears to be an end door. If it had only been in MSC service for a year, given its general condition they look to have been pre-MSC modifications?

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm curious to know how that D529 came by its long window and what appears to be an end door. If it had only been in MSC service for a year, given its general condition they look to have been pre-MSC modifications?

Some of the modifications were done by the MSC to make it suited for the Cashier's coach role, but I must confess I can't see the point of the end doors, and that suggests it might have been partly modified in a previous life.

There are quite a lot of photos of this vehicle: the big window was only on one side but the adjacent double doors were sealed up on both sides (those at the other end remained in use on both sides). End doors were fitted in  both ends.

The MSC had a very well equipped workshop so would certainly have been capable of this sort of work. However they didn't go in for elaborate paint jobs except on the locos, and a coat of matt red oxide would make any coach look a little tired!

 

Don Thorpe's book on the MSC Railway says of this vehicle:

"The second Cashier's coach, No.2, an ex-Midland Railway 4 wheeler, was delivered on 21st March 1953 and was ready for duty by 21st April. It was originally a brake, as the brakeman's 'ducket' protruding from the side, shows, and it bore the number M198718. The Central Wagon Company Ltd., were the suppliers. On arrival at Mode Wheel, where all the Cashier's Coaches have been stabled, the livery was changed to the same red oxide colour as No.1. The Company's initials were, however, limited to MSC which were picked out in white letters appproximately 4in.x1in. high. Like the previous cashier's coach it was sparsely furnished with a fixed table and seats, and was heated by the usual cast-iron solid fuel stove. An interesting feature of the coach was the construction of the wheels which were a composite of wood and steel. They were made this way in order that the rail and tyre noise would be lessened. Cashier's Coach No.2 was broken up soon after Cashier's Coach No.3 came into use."

 

[the last statement is incorrect, it was withdrawn but went for preservation and now survives at Chasewater.]

 

I wonder whether the vehicle had seen some departmental service on the main line before being acquired by the MSC? That might account for its late survival and a number which appears to be in the wagon series. Perhaps the end doors were fitted by the LMS?

 

Incidentlly Cashier's Coach No.1 was an ex-GCR 6-wheel saloon; this was withdrawn well before my modelling period but it was an attractive vehicle and is well photographed.

Cashier's Coach No.3 was a BR Eastern Region horsebox number 1662 built in 1954 and modified by the MSC. Unfortunately the Parkside kit for an LNER horsebox isn't quite right - it's too short as well as other detail differences.

No.3 replaced No.2 in 1965 and I'm modelling the mid-60s, so could justify either. But No.2 is a much more attractive vehicle.

 

I think there may once have been a 7mm scale kit for MR D529 but no longer in production. That's a pity because this would be the ideal coach for my needs - it's nice and short for my small layout, and would have visited my model location every week with the wages.

 

 

[Compound2632]

That's very interesting, thanks. A couple of comments:

 

10 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

The Central Wagon Company Ltd., were the suppliers. 

 

That's an error, I'm afraid. The Central Wagon Co. Ltd. of Wigan was established in 1911. I suspect confusion with the West Central Wagon Co., founded in 1872, taking over the former premises of the Worcester Engine Works Co. West Central built a batch of 75 of these passenger brake vans in 1875, original numbers though to be 332-406 [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 366]. These had a flatter roof profile than the later standard for Midland arc-roof carriages - 10 ft radius giving 7'1" internal height rather than 8 ft giving 7'4", on vehicles built after c. 1878/9. 

 

14 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

An interesting feature of the coach was the construction of the wheels which were a composite of wood and steel. They were made this way in order that the rail and tyre noise would be lessened.

 

In other words, it retained its original Mansell wheels - standard issue for passenger carriages well into the 1920s. 

 

20 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

[the last statement is incorrect, it was withdrawn but went for preservation and now survives at Chasewater.]

 

Various websites associated with the Chasewater Railway are singularly uninformative though I glean that it was used in the very early days of the railway. There was a brief account of some restoration work going forward in 1998 (!) and a reference to an 1885 date. The Railway Heritage Carriage Register has a bit more, reckoning its a Derby-built example from 1878, even giving a number, 68. It would therefore be interesting to know where Don Thorpe got his information from.

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks, that's all very useful information.

 

It might be that the reference to the Central Wagon Company referred not to the original builder, but to the dealer that the MSC Railway purchased the vehicle from. Having read the rest of Don's book with a number of similar references, that's the way I interpret it. However, I can see that by quoting a single paragraph in isolation it could easily give a different impression.

 

Don Thorpe worked on the MSC Railway for many years so much of this may be from personal recollection and access to official records when the railway was still in use. I agree that he describes Mansell wheels; to him with a lifetime's experience of the MSC Railway they would have been a novelty though of course we recognise them as standard for that tyope of vehicle.

 

Regards,

Mol

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Thanks, that's all very useful information.

 

It might be that the reference to the Central Wagon Company referred not to the original builder, but to the dealer that the MSC Railway purchased the vehicle from. Having read the rest of Don's book with a number of similar references, that's the way I interpret it. However, I can see that by quoting a single paragraph in isolation it could easily give a different impression.

 

Don Thorpe worked on the MSC Railway for many years so much of this may be from personal recollection and access to official records when the railway was still in use. I agree that he describes Mansell wheels; to him with a lifetime's experience of the MSC Railway they would have been a novelty though of course we recognise them as standard for that tyope of vehicle.

 

Regards,

Mol

 

OK that makes sense and doesn't stand in the way of Chasewater's identification.

 

I'd meant to add that the Midland Railway Study Centre collection includes Derby C&W drawing 5420 [MRSC Item 88-D2100] of March 1922 "Proposed Workmen's Van for Telegraph Dept", for modifications to a D529 van which appear to have been carried out to SWO 4668. This doesn't correspond to the changes to the MSC van (left-hand of each set of double doors to be replaced with a second hand door with droplight; bench with cupboards under across one end and shelves across the other, precluding any end doors) but it does show that these vehicles were being adapted for departmental use in late Midland / early LMS days.

[Jub45565]

Good find on that D1745 drawing Mol. Sorry, I can't help with the sidelines kits - I find them 75% overscale ;-)

 

One thing to note is that it looks like a Met Cam coach - that underframe doesn't have the standard LMS trussing but a much narrower frame around the battery boxes - not that these appear to be in place in your MSC photo, but any residual bracketry or rivet lines would be different.

[Compound2632]

On 18/03/2021 at 21:50, 65179 said:

Longworth has the LMS 2220X number series as Midland Railway diagram 556. A Bain (?) arc roofed 50' non-corridor brake third.  That seems to accord with the picture you linked to.

 

For completeness, 26 built to Drawing 3140 as Lot 713 ordered on 2 February 1909 for St Pancras - Bedford sets - these sets were the first 9 ft wide Midland suburban carriages, distinguished by having six rather than five end panels. No. 22209 started life as No. 1180, became No. 23194 at the great LMS renumbering of 1933 but c.1935 became No. 24996, having been upgraded to second class for use on the ex-NLR services from Broad Street to stations on the GN but reverted to third when second was abolished for those services at the end of 1937, being again renumbered to No. 22209 [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 282 and Appendix 31, p. 473]. The Midland Railway Study Centre has three versions of drawing 3140 but none scanned, as far as I'm aware. 

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks to you both for the additional info!