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20 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

The steel industry specify shredded scrap for their electric-arc furnaces. Indeed, smaller scrapyards may bale cars etc, then sell on to people like Sims who will shred the bales.

Is this maybe to avoid the chances of non ferrous metals getting into the mix?

Youngest son worked as s chemist at two steel plants, one in Scunny, the other a stainless plant in Sheffield, and they were both hot on ensuring the steel was up to spec.

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37 minutes ago, JeffP said:

Is this maybe to avoid the chances of non ferrous metals getting into the mix?

Youngest son worked as s chemist at two steel plants, one in Scunny, the other a stainless plant in Sheffield, and they were both hot on ensuring the steel was up to spec.

There was a bounty on the finding and removal of an electric motor in the received scrap at Aldwarke as the copper in the windings affected the quality of the steel produced!

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18 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

There was a bounty on the finding and removal of an electric motor in the received scrap at Aldwarke as the copper in the windings affected the quality of the steel produced!

Did you get to weigh-in the motor as well? 

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According to wnxx.com, the next three Class 91’s for disposal are 91103,104 and 108, all at Wabtec.  91104 has just joined 91103 and 108 which have both been stripped of useable spares.

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On 19/03/2021 at 01:09, LBRJ said:

Crikey! I now feel officially Old!

 

Though I suppose if it is not that far off 25 years since I first saw them at Leeds/Wakefield/ Donny on the ECML I am old :D

 

 

Thanks, that reminds me it's now 30 years since I trained on them, ready for their start on full ECML services

Edited by Ken.W
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On 19/03/2021 at 11:11, Coldgunner said:

I wonder if she's going partly because of her history as number 23

 

And this news comes just after the 20th anniversary of Great Heck on the last day of last month.

 

I never did like getting this one. Personally, I felt the re-numbering was counter productive as it made it more obvious - No. 32 when everyone knew there was only 31

 

On 21/03/2021 at 05:13, jools1959 said:


It might be cheaper in the long run for the leasing company to ask Sims to carefully remove certain items as they dismantle the loco rather than to take it to Wabtec, spend several thousands of pounds to do exactly the same thing.

 

 

Agreed, I expect they will be stripping it for spares. Given their age there is a shortage of some major spares.

I recall that, a few years ago at the time the last one to have a major transformer failure was out of service, it was said the next to suffer that would be scrap as their were no more spares

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6 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

 

And this news comes just after the 20th anniversary of Great Heck on the last day of last month.

 

I never did like getting this one. Personally, I felt the re-numbering was counter productive as it made it more obvious - No. 32 when everyone knew there was only 31

 

 

Agreed, I expect they will be stripping it for spares. Given their age there is a shortage of some major spares.

I recall that, a few years ago at the time the last one to have a major transformer failure was out of service, it was said the next to suffer that would be scrap as their were no more spares

Perhap's it's because Wabtec have carried out the maintenance thus far? 

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On 23/03/2021 at 20:11, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

And one of the presenters asked them about going from a train with two locos able to limp forward if one loco failed to a train with one loco ergo no movement at all if that burst. They tried to hold the Class 91 back until the Friday but it was visible passing going the other way on a test train comprised of blue/grey SLE/SLEP from the 43108 can ride on 1S16, and pointed out by the traincrew on same!

 

 

Yes, although the HSTs did of course have their share of problems, I never once had to hauled in with a one.

 

It didn't take long to loose count of the number of times with 91s!!!

One time I recall, twice in a fortnight when starting off from Newcastle for KX, we didn't get as far as the full train out of the platform, and had to get assistance back in so the doors could be opened to turf every one again

 

Also of course many other times with failures where we managed to get going again, and without the Technical Riding Inspectors the ECML would have ground to a standstill.

Edited by Ken.W
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43 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

Agreed, I expect they will be stripping it for spares. Given their age there is a shortage of some major spares.

I recall that, a few years ago at the time the last one to have a major transformer failure was out of service, it was said the next to suffer that would be scrap as their were no more spares


91119 was out of service with a blown transformer for best part of a year and returned in retro IC swallow livery.  I spoke to a traction inspector at Peterborough several years ago and he couldn’t wait for the Azuma’s because most of the 91’s were running with just 3 traction motors, affecting acceleration and time keeping.

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18 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Has anyone seen anymore pics / videos of the loco being broken up? Quick search online shows nothing.

Fairly regular updates over on WNXX, it was still intact yesterday but the clutter around it had been moved so it’s demise may be imminent.

 

Apparently 3 more to follow too, 91103, 104 & 108 are predicted to be for scrap already being at Wabtec for spares removal 

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On 20/03/2021 at 14:41, John M Upton said:

A template?  What on Earth do they need a template for to scrap a loco?   Just a gas axe and a grabber is all that is needed.

Could it be an excuse for the scrappie to get a cheap one ?

 

”hmmm... oh dunno mate, looks a right pig to scrap that, going to need oidles of men and time, give me it me an al’ av a go, ler u know how I got on.... dont fink anyone else will want this job like”.

 

?


Trial scrappings I dont get.
 

Works have been maintaining 91’s for decades, they more than anyone else know how to recover parts.. properly, carefully and without damaging the loco too. They have full experience of whats important, and how to install/remove it. 
so why they can’t recover, without now having to care about  collateral damage I don’t get.

Scrappie then just turns up with a truck to take the pieces away.

 

As opposed to the works turning up to collect the precious bits that have been removed by someone who has no care about precious, condition or any class 91 experience, maybe shrug shoulders and say it was best efforts...

 

i’m missing something, it makes my cynical.

 

Perhaps the template is about agreeing the price, after the fact ?

ie scrappies dismantles it to see what they find, and what its worth ?

 

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Maybe it's gone there to keep those who collect items from unfortunate locos from getting any bits?

Perhaps a condition that it's dismantled and everything goes in the shredder, there's a pretty hefty one at Beeston.

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23 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Trial scrappings I dont get.
 

Works have been maintaining 91’s for decades, they more than anyone else know how to recover parts.. properly, carefully and without damaging the loco too. They have full experience of whats important, and how to install/remove it. 
so why they can’t recover, without now having to care about  collateral damage I don’t get.

Scrappie then just turns up with a truck to take the pieces away.

 

As opposed to the works turning up to collect the precious bits that have been removed by someone who has no care about precious, condition or any class 91 experience, maybe shrug shoulders and say it was best efforts...

 

i’m missing something, it makes my cynical.

 

 

Sending it to a works* for them to strip down and then scrapping it is muchos expensive, and given the total demand for Class 91's in the UK is now zero and will be very, very close to zero when the export market works out that a loco geared for 140mph passenger work but takes miles and miles to reach that speed isn't that useful.

 

The ROSCO will always maximise the income from its asset, they are not in the business of chucking money away.

 

* For Class 91's "a works" equals Doncaster, Doncaster or Doncaster as no other site has seen one since they were built, so you pay what they want or don't get the job done!

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I spoke to a friend of mine who still works in the rail industry and from what he gathered, all useable components are to be returned undamaged to the “spares pool”.  He couldn’t find out much more due to confidentiality clauses but it would seem there’s a agreement between Eversholt, Wabtec, ROG and Sims Group regarding the future and eventual disposal of the Class 91.

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Twenty years ago, when I started work at GNER, 91132 as it became was in the midst of crash damage repairs to the bunker end following Great Heck, and while it was there it also went through Heavy General Repair. It was the 13th HGR loco out of the works....

Although 132 was officially named "City of Durham", I always referred to her as "Lucky".

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1 hour ago, EddieK said:

Twenty years ago, when I started work at GNER, 91132 as it became was in the midst of crash damage repairs to the bunker end following Great Heck, and while it was there it also went through Heavy General Repair. It was the 13th HGR loco out of the works....

Although 132 was officially named "City of Durham", I always referred to her as "Lucky".

Not overly ‘lucky’ if you were one of those killed at Heck or Hatfield! Don’t think anyone will mourn the passing of 91023/132!

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On 26/03/2021 at 18:02, jools1959 said:


91119 was out of service with a blown transformer for best part of a year and returned in retro IC swallow livery.  I spoke to a traction inspector at Peterborough several years ago and he couldn’t wait for the Azuma’s because most of the 91’s were running with just 3 traction motors, affecting acceleration and time keeping.

We couldn’t wait for the Azumas either. The 91’s were painfully slow getting away from Durham/Darlington/Northallerton/York southbound when you were following one with a Voyager. The Azumas are much better at getting out of the way!

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1 hour ago, EddieK said:

Twenty years ago, when I started work at GNER, 91132 as it became was in the midst of crash damage repairs to the bunker end following Great Heck, and while it was there it also went through Heavy General Repair. It was the 13th HGR loco out of the works....

Although 132 was officially named "City of Durham", I always referred to her as "Lucky".

Unlucky, surely?

 

I seem to recall that as the heavy general program was underway it took the slot of another loco in the sequence and once examination found the Heck damage to be easily fixable they got on with it. If I remember rightly not one other vehicle from Heck ran again, not even the TOE. 

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6 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Unlucky, surely?

 

91132 must have had a guardian angel as it survived two near misses, and at least it has lasted until its "natural" (for a railway loco) death.

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A few months after I joined GNER (twenty years ago), in the wake of Great Heck, one of my colleagues who had enjoyed a long railway career by that time was able to bring some "gallows humour" to our office. (If easily offended, scroll past, now).

Around Autumn 2001 (from memory) he was asked where our boss was; my colleague replied that our boss had gone to the National Rail Awards Dinner , and that we stood a good chance of winning the award for the best crash....

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Well that's been an 'interesting' thread. I have to be honest and say I couldn't give a monkeys about real railways now and haven't since the Brush 4/ HST era ended. Partly out of nostalgia and partly out of a dislike of the interior of the new stuff- it's mainly those seats they've put in on 2000 onwards trains. It's not natural to sit bolt upright for that length of time; what's shocked me is how both first class and worst class are the same there.

 

Now, down to the important bit... When do we think Sims will get their first voyagers and pendolinos? Given how each generation seems to last less years than the previous one, I'm hoping we'll see them go in the next few years.

 

As for the objective matter here: if you have a monopoly on X item, whether it is a complete locomotive or a specific part such as a spare transformer, you control the market and thus the price. It is not in the stock owners interest to see cheap stock going on the market otherwise how can they command high prices for the newer stuff? We saw this in the bus industry in the 1990s- leasing companies were selling off Nationals and VRs so cheap that operators were buying them and shunning new builds, which made the leasing companies no money.

 

 

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