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Clayton Clerestory coaches - arrangement of end steps?


Nick Lawson
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Some Midland Railway coaches had steps up both sides of one end only, while others had steps up the left hand side only of both ends. Is there a logic to which was applied to particular diagrams and did it change over time? I've see the suggestion that brake-ended coaches would be "more likely" to have all the steps together at the brake end. Is there anything in this?  I've looked at the usual reference works. It may be coincidence but  earlier pictures of Clayton clerestories have the single-ended layout, while the few examples of the double-ended variety come with LMS livery.

 

Or is this another detail lost in the mists of time? If I want to model a D499 Brake 3rd in 1923 does it matter which I adopt? (I.e do I need to take a scalpel to Mr Ratio's venerable plastic?!)

 

Second question. The steps were supplied with a handrail. On an end with steps up the left hand side only there was also a shorter, vertical handrail up the right hand side of the end. What was this used for? (Actually I see that on a coach with steps at one end only, the other end had these short handrails on both sides.)

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The shorter handrails ( question 2 ) might have been associated with a lower step to help a shunter descend to track level for coupling/uncoupling - in which case they would be at both ends.

 

Ascending steps to the roof might have changed when the coached were altered from oil to gas lighting and/or when they were built with lavatories.

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Thanks Wickham. The shorter handrails - that's a thought. In the meantime it occurred to me that, going in the opposite direction, they might also have been to assist someone climbing up to slide the gas shutoff bar across.

 

Um, these coaches had lavs from new. I think also gas lighting?

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Lighting SHOULD have only been in use at times of darkness and the rules - at least in later times  - specified that they should be turned on at the station prior to any tunnel (s) or, of course before starting a journey in the dark ..... so they SHOUNDN'T have needed switching on or off from ground level.

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There was a change. The square-light non-corridor clerestories were built with steps at one end only, from both sides in an inverted V thus: /\. This was changed at a later date to steps at both ends, on the left-hand side, thus: /. Unfortunately the date when this change began seems to be unknown; my guess is post-Great War but it could have been earlier - 1910+? I think the Bain 54 ft non-corridor clerestories may have had the steps at both ends from new. Possibly it coincides with a start to replacing the door toplights with ventilators, though that seems to have been a drawn-out process and not all carriages were modified.

 

As you say, @Nick Lawson, these carriages were built with gas lighting. The very first batches were 13'3" from rail level to the top of the clerestory roof and had the gas lamps suspended within the clerestory, so just a short "knob" visible on the roof. This was soon changed, with the roof height reduced to 13'1" (by flattening the profile of the clerestory roof) and lamps on the lower roof. For these, the gas pipes ran between the lamps and the clerestory side. At some date relatively early on, long handrails were added to the clerestory roof. 

 

You may have been confused by photos in the carriage books of carriages built for close-coupled sets. The brake ends of these were built with both-side steps which they retained but the close-coupled ends had no steps - there wouldn't be room between the carriages to climb up anyway. So the non-brake carriages in these sets were stepless.

 

In short, the Ratio kits are good for representing carriages in late Midland / early LMS condition - they even have the deepened section of eves panel to fit the inscription MIDLAND - although there is the proviso that many were fitted with 8 ft wheelbase bogies by this date. The long handrails on the roof would be the most visually significant enhancement, I think.

 

 

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@Compound2632 Stephen, thank you for the comprehensive answer. I will choose to believe the change in step arrangement was later rather than sooner, so I can have some of each.

 

The clerestory top handrail - David Jenkinson ("Historic Carriage Drawings" 1998 edition p96) opined that, "the clerestory top handrail (dating from c1900) had mostly been replaced by a series of shorter rails on the side of the clerestory roof by c.1920."  I can't say I've noticed either arrangement yet.

 

You won't be surprised that I am working from Stephen Williams' "4mm coach". He models an "emergency brake tell-tale linkage", which doesn't appear to be an original fitting. While you're at it - what period did this get added?

 

Thanks again.

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I'm afraid I have neither of the books you mention. I am guided by the authoritative work, R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986, 2 vols.), and to some degree by the less comprehensive D. Jenkinson & R.J. Essery, Midland Carriages (OPC, 1984). See PM. Good photos of clerestory carriage roofs are hard to come by.

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The Historic Drawings books are the books mostly compiled from drawings in Railway Modeller in the 1960s. Which were also printed in book form in the late 1960s. Also locomotives and wagon books by Roche.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HISTORIC-CARRIAGE-DRAWINGS-4MM-SCALE/dp/B001UB0AQM/ref=sr_1_4?crid=33ZN2WC5Z7Q92&dchild=1&keywords=historic+carriage+drawings&qid=1616480714&s=books&sprefix=historic+carriage+%2Caps%2C162&sr=1-4

 

They were done for the LMS Society and there was a selection of LNER drawings. Later expanded and published in three volumes by Pendragon and the HMRS. ISTR there was meant to be two more which never appeared for the SR and GWR. The NPCCS volume is heavily weighted towards LMS and LNER constituents.

 

This is the LMS version. Lots of pre 1923 stuff in it.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Historic-Carriage-Drawings-Two-Constituents/dp/1899816062/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=historic+carriage+drawings&qid=1616481307&s=books&sr=1-2

 

 

If you are looking for photographs of MR Clerestory roofs then the 4MM Coach book has them. ISTR there's something like ten pages of photos and information on the prototypes in far more detail than the Lacy books.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/4mm-Coach-First-Principles-Projects/dp/1874103127/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=4mm+coach&qid=1616481466&s=books&sr=1-1

 

There is also the Jenkinson book, which also has a lot on building MR Clerestories.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Carriage-Modelling-Made-David-Jenkinson/dp/1874103321/ref=rtpb_2?pd_rd_w=Ld6Uq&pf_rd_p=5a5e3976-5d4e-46fd-b875-6aae78355b0a&pf_rd_r=SHMHS4GR99M878R53VV8&pd_rd_r=c6e56713-7228-4ed6-beb9-e83654bcae1a&pd_rd_wg=63l1O&pd_rd_i=1874103321&psc=1

 

 

Linked to Amazon for convenience. Other booksellers are available.

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
Does help if I post the correct links...
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22 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

If you are looking for photographs of MR Clerestory roofs then the 4MM Coach book has them. ISTR there's something like ten pages of photos and information on the prototypes in far more detail than the Lacy books.

 

I'd be curious to know where Stephen Williams got his information from, other than photographs. I've ordered a copy of Vol. 1!

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5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd be curious to know where Stephen Williams got his information from, other than photographs. I've ordered a copy of Vol. 1!

 

No idea, but quite a lot has possible came to light since they were originally wrote. Isn't there even more information in the Midland Record and LMS Journals which wasn't included in any of the books?

 

I'm far from an expert on them. That's why I've been buying them up recently. Mostly when I can find them at bargain bin prices. I don't mind RRP, but some of the prices being quoted for old books is ridiculous.

 

 

Jason

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2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

No idea, but quite a lot has possible came to light since they were originally wrote. Isn't there even more information in the Midland Record and LMS Journals which wasn't included in any of the books?

 

There's more information on appearance as built, through the Midland Railway Study Centre C&W drawing collection, but for later appearance I don't think there's been a great deal more. I'll report back once my copy of Williams' book arrives!

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I've been reminded of an even better photo than the one I'd PM'd to @Nick Lawson, D. Jenkinson & R.J. Essery, Midland Carriages (OPC, 1984) Plate 19. This is an official photo, DY 6422, taken in the Derby C&W works lifting shop on 11 April 1910; the Midland Railway Study Centre has a lighter print, MRSC Item 88-2014-0093. The carriage on the right has the full range of end paraphernalia and modifications: steps on the left only, train alarm gear, gas pipe and control bar (gas pipe on the left only, not sure how the gas got to the RHS), and also in item not previously discussed, the steam heating pipes emerging from the lower corners of the body. The carriage in the centre seems to have all these features except the steam heating pipes.

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Where to start?!

@Compound2632 Yes, I also have Lacey & Dow (both) and the Jenkinson & Essery. (The memsahib is getting increasingly restive as more and more reference works spread across the living room surfaces.

The date of the changeover from single-end steps to both: for everyone else Stephen (in a PM) has now hardened up to the view that steps both ends were universal by the end of the Great War. I will have to run an anachronism after all then for now. ("I don't know what came over me officer. When I came to I had a mek brush in my hand and it was All Over")

 

Here's a related detail for debate: it appears that when steps were at a single end, on both sides, then the handrails went to the lower roof, next to the base of the clerestory. However, when the steps were both ends, single side, then the handrail went to the top of the clerestory end. Is this always the case? If so then the Ratio kit is incorrect in this detail (tut!). In this case, if you are following Stephen Williams' book in fitting brass handrails, then watch out because he just replaced what Ratio had provided. (I think this book provides useful inspiration to wannabe modellers to get started kitbashing, but the author admits in the text that he wasn't really an expert on the prototype. And as @Steamport Southport points out, things have moved on.)

 

Steam heating. Thanks @Compound2632 for pointing out the photo DY6422. This very usefully shows the steam heating pipes on the end of the carriage, and their relative prominence, compared with other end pipework.

 

Carriage roof handles. I think I can identify 4 configurations! @Compound2632identified: 1. originally no handles 2. long handles running along  the clerestory top. Jenkinson & Essery's illustrated review plate 133 shows such a handrail silhouetted against the sky. Williams, vol 1, p36 has a nice large reproduction of MR drawing 1219 which shows these clearly.

3. Jenkinson, referenced earlier in this thread stated that the long rails were replaced by a set of shorter ones. These are partly visible in the photo I was PM'd. They probably equate to the layout in Jenkinson & Essery, plate 129 of a Bain round-windowed clerestory; in which the short handrails are centred above each of the gas lights.

4. Lastly, Williams vol 1 P46 shows a nice view of LMS clerestories, from which the gas lights have been removed; and so have the clerestory roof handles except for the end handles and the one adjoining them.

 

New question!   Bogies: I take the point about a change to 8' bogies. At grouping would most Clayton clerestory stock have been 8' or 10' or an indeterminate mixture?

.

 

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@Nick Lawson, this reply and your PM are timely since the copy of Stephen Williams' book arrived today. There are several good Essery collection photos there that I don't recall seeing before. The photo on p. 38 is particularly informative, showing all the end detail we have been discussing. Not only is this a carriage in "late" LMS condition (but before the 1933 renumbering), with the step-boards removed, but it is also an example with 8 ft wheelbase bogies. This confirms a point I had been unsure of: the bogie centres have clearly been changed from the 31 ft with the original 10 ft wheelbase bogies to 33 ft, so that the outer axles are in their original positions. This must have involved considerable modification to the underframe. There were 411 48 ft lavatory carriages built 1898-1902. The 120 48 ft Bain arc-roof suburban carriages built in 1908/9 used 10 ft wheelbase bogies off "main-line carriages" - which will have been mostly these carriages - replaced by 8 ft wheelbase pressed steel bogies of the type that were standard under Bain's 54 ft clerestory corridor carriages. Thus one can infer that around a quarter had the 8 ft bogies.

 

Williams has blundered in one respect: he has gone to some pains to provide a representation of the transverse leaf springs to the bolsters but by the 1920s these had been replaced with coil springs, as seen in the Essery collection photo on p. 35. The Ratio bogies seem to me to represent these adequately. However, as a c. 1902 modeller, it's useful to see how he did it!

 

I think that all the photos showing steps on both sides at the same end with the handrails running only up to the bottom of the clerestory are of 13'3" high carriages: Lacey & Dow Vol. 1 Figs. 152, 158, 161/2, 167, 173, and 175; also Jenkinson & Essery Plate 135 of No. 938, which Lacy attributes to Lot 420 - i.e. among the earliest built, before the change in clerestory roof height. In most cases the lack of gas lamps on the lower roof confirms this; the Bristol-Bradford and London-Manchester sets and the batch of general service 60 ft composites were certainly built 13'3" high. The 13'1" high carriages had handrails running up to the top of the clerestory sides. This distinction is made clear in Lacy's Fig. 166 and also by the version of drawing 1219 reproduced by Williams, pp. 36-7, which is for a 13'1" tall carriage. I presume this is the copy of this drawing held by the Midland Railway Study Centre, which is listed as being applicable to Lots 428 and 496. (The Derby C&W Drawing Office had a bad habit of re-drawing to reflect current construction without changing the drawing number, so that in the most extreme case a drawing purporting to be from 1882 was actually drawn c. 1901!)

 

The 13'3" carriages were modified early in the 20th century to have their gas lamps on the lower roof but it's an open question whether the handrails were changed - perhaps not. Having run the vernier micrometer over one of mine (built in my teens) I've come to the conclusion that the Ratio kit represents a 13'3" tall vehicle, in which case Ratio correctly represented the handrail. That's a new discovery to me! You're asking lots of questions that are forcing me to think ever more carefully about this carriages and the Ratio kits!

 

The reason my built ones date from my teens is that since I settled on c. 1902 I have wrestled long hard and so far unsuccessfully with modifying the kits to represent carriages as built! (Guard's lookouts or lack thereof before 1902, and removing the door ventilators, have been the biggest hurdles. Also lack of the commonest type, the D508 composite / brake composite.) I have come to the conclusion that the easiest way forward must be completely new sides.

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