"Run-arounds" and changing direction in a modern image goods yard?

[MattWallace]

Hey all,

 

I'm working on an N-Gauge modular layout and part of it will be a large yard with four sidings.

 

Very loosely modelled on the FLHH Depot at Bristol Parkway, I'm hoping to have reasonably proto-typical length trains stabled there, however I'm struggling to understand how it might operate.

 

(There is a second module to be build which will extend the above by another 3ft to the left)

 

The approach to the yard is from the right heading left along the image via the "UP MAIN", and exiting the yard would take you on to the "DOWN MAIN" heading back out to the right of the module.

 

All four sidings are terminated, and I'm planning to add a couple of "run-round" loops at the end of each pair to allow a loco to run in to the sidings, decouple, and then run around the service to re-attach or to  leave the yard.

 

My questions are as follows:

 

1. Is a "round around" like this something that you would find in such a yard?
2. If the only way out of the yard is via the DOWN MAIN, how would I go about getting the service on to the "UP MAIN" so it can proceed to the left of the picture?

 

Is shunting an entire service out of a yard onto a main line so it can then be pulled in the right direction even a thing?

 

Thanks in advance!

[iands]

I don't think it is acceptable to "shunt" on to the main line, I think you would need a "shunt neck". Also, I think you would need trap points on the sidings to the main line(s). Sorry for being negative, but I think you'll need to rethink your layout if you want it to be  modern/prototypical.

[SM42]

Don't they do just that at Kingsbury for north bound services?

 

About 3m 50s

 

 

 

Andy

Edited March 20, 2021 by SM42
yes they do

[iands]

1 minute ago, SM42 said:

Don't they do just that at Kinsgbury for north bound services?

 

Andy

Ah, you've got me there. I was just applying some sort of risk based safety view to the question. But I've no doubt there will be somewhere (probably several locations) on the network that doesn't appear to follow my thinking.

[SM42]

5 minutes ago, iands said:

Ah, you've got me there. I was just applying some sort of risk based safety view to the question. But I've no doubt there will be somewhere (probably several locations) on the network that doesn't appear to follow my thinking.

 

It is a bit alarming, I'll give you that.

 

Andy

[101]

1 hour ago, MattWallace said:

Hey all,

 

I'm working on an N-Gauge modular layout and part of it will be a large yard with four sidings.

 

Very loosely modelled on the FLHH Depot at Bristol Parkway, I'm hoping to have reasonably proto-typical length trains stabled there, however I'm struggling to understand how it might operate.

 

(There is a second module to be build which will extend the above by another 3ft to the left)

 

The approach to the yard is from the right heading left along the image via the "UP MAIN", and exiting the yard would take you on to the "DOWN MAIN" heading back out to the right of the module.

 

All four sidings are terminated, and I'm planning to add a couple of "run-round" loops at the end of each pair to allow a loco to run in to the sidings, decouple, and then run around the service to re-attach or to  leave the yard.

 

My questions are as follows:

 

1. Is a "round around" like this something that you would find in such a yard?
2. If the only way out of the yard is via the DOWN MAIN, how would I go about getting the service on to the "UP MAIN" so it can proceed to the left of the picture?

 

Is shunting an entire service out of a yard onto a main line so it can then be pulled in the right direction even a thing?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

There aren't many places where you will find points at the end of sidings to form run rounds - the only place I can think of one is on the down side at Westbury (11&12 rds iirc)

There was a headhunt at Stoke Gifford until recently but it wasn't very long and trains were indeed shunted via the main line - normally towards Filton. Trains to head in the Up direction were shunted out of the yard usually onto the Down reception or down loop where they then ran round, they could also be shunted across onto to the up loop to run round though not normally onto the up reception (pre Royal Mail depot) as that required opening a GF at the east end to run round/depart the train.

*this was before the two loops became platform roads

Edited March 20, 2021 by 101

[Steadfast]

3 hours ago, 101 said:

There aren't many places where you will find points at the end of sidings to form run rounds - the only place I can think of one is on the down side at Westbury (11&12 rds iirc)

Yep, 11&12 form the little run round, 1&3 form the big run round, and the VQ on the upside is a run round. We can also run round on the Up Reception (top end by the station) if the rake is short enough or the Down Reception.

 

Regarding mainline shunts, we often shunt towards the bank (Warminster direction) if the train is too long for the headshunt. Can also shunt out towards Fairwood, but not done as often due to it locking both routes up, not just the one up the bank. We also regularly transfer wagons between the up and down yards, both propelling and hauling.

 

Jo

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Steadfast

[DCB]

I  think this is a more likely scenario.   The trouble is with OO tension lock couplers you can't really reverse a long train over reverse curves .  Ths leads to a need to run round stock rather than propel it.  It's OK with Kadees or Peco & H/D Couplers and likely to be OK with the N gauge coupers the OP is probably using, but  it has influenced many model track plans over the past 50 years.

I would suggest the arrangement in my pic. 4 trailing sidings a crossover, and a short shunt spur, mainly for extracting cripples from rakes.

Edited March 21, 2021 by DavidCBroad

[MattWallace]

 

9 hours ago, iands said:

I don't think it is acceptable to "shunt" on to the main line, I think you would need a "shunt neck". Also, I think you would need trap points on the sidings to the main line(s). Sorry for being negative, but I think you'll need to rethink your layout if you want it to be  modern/prototypical.

 

Hey, no worries, if I wasn't thinking about reworking some of the track then I wouldn't be asking for advice, this is really useful, thank you!

 

9 hours ago, 101 said:

 

There aren't many places where you will find points at the end of sidings to form run rounds - the only place I can think of one is on the down side at Westbury (11&12 rds iirc)

There was a headhunt at Stoke Gifford until recently but it wasn't very long and trains were indeed shunted via the main line - normally towards Filton. Trains to head in the Up direction were shunted out of the yard usually onto the Down reception or down loop where they then ran round, they could also be shunted across onto to the up loop to run round though not normally onto the up reception (pre Royal Mail depot) as that required opening a GF at the east end to run round/depart the train.

*this was before the two loops became platform roads

 

ok, thanks so let's say a 66 pulls a service in to one of the sidings, would there then be a second loco to pull the wagons out to release the 66 for other duties, or would the 66 just stay there on the service until it was time to move on?

 

9 hours ago, SM42 said:

Don't they do just that at Kingsbury for north bound services?

 

About 3m 50s

 

 

 

Andy

 

This video is a goldmine, thank you!

 

4 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

I  think this is a more likely scenario.   The trouble is with OO tension lock couplers you can't really reverse a long train over reverse curves .  Ths leads to a need to run round stock rather than propel it.  It's OK with Kadees or Peco & H/D Couplers and likely to be OK with the N gauge coupers the OP is probably using, but  it has influenced many model track plans over the past 50 years.

I would suggest the arrangement in my pic. 4 trailing sidings a crossover, and a short shunt spur, mainly for extracting cripples from rakes.

 

Thanks, I'm going to give this a bit of a rework and I'll come back with some suggestions if that's ok?

[The Pilotman]

Another possibility might be to have trains pulled out of the yard onto the mainline by an 08 shunter with the train loco on the rear until clear of the crossover. The 08 is then detached, the train departs and the 08 follows it along to a shunt signal and then back into the yard. I don’t know if this practice still exists (my involvement with railway operation ended twenty years ago) but it was certainly a frequent occurrence at Didcot Yard at both the Didcot East junction and Didcot North junction ends. It would add a bit of operational interest too.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Another similar version that might be useful is 'Eccles Road' in Norfolk that shows how 'modern' freight sidings could be worked. There is a loco release and run-round, and shunting into the adjacent station is required for entrance/exit of the site. Only 2 sidings/a loop off the mainline, but it does feed an extra couple of sidings for the actual loading/unloading, or the design could be adapted with extra tracks.

 

Lots of pictures in this thread:  

 

[black and decker boy]

If you search for Oxford Parkway on google maps, you can see the aggregate sidings and entry point work and run round. The two through lines are the Oxford to Bicester line. 

 

This may work for other live yards

 

[MattWallace]

6 hours ago, Western Aviator said:

Another possibility might be to have trains pulled out of the yard onto the mainline by an 08 shunter with the train loco on the rear until clear of the crossover. The 08 is then detached, the train departs and the 08 follows it along to a shunt signal and then back into the yard. I don’t know if this practice still exists (my involvement with railway operation ended twenty years ago) but it was certainly a frequent occurrence at Didcot Yard at both the Didcot East junction and Didcot North junction ends. It would add a bit of operational interest too.

 

Thanks, that does sound like a nice way to add some more interest to the layout, especially as the next module to the right of the yard throat is going to be a viaduct over a canal!

 

5 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Another similar version that might be useful is 'Eccles Road' in Norfolk that shows how 'modern' freight sidings could be worked. There is a loco release and run-round, and shunting into the adjacent station is required for entrance/exit of the site. Only 2 sidings/a loop off the mainline, but it does feed an extra couple of sidings for the actual loading/unloading, or the design could be adapted with extra tracks.

 

Lots of pictures in this thread:  

 

 

That's fantastic, thanks!

 

2 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

If you search for Oxford Parkway on google maps, you can see the aggregate sidings and entry point work and run round. The two through lines are the Oxford to Bicester line. 

 

This may work for other live yards

 

Nice, that's almost exactly what I was thinking of, I may have to steal some of that layout for my own!

[black and decker boy]

There is also a yard / MOD exchange sidings just west of Bicester Village station. It’s accessible at both ends and has traditional headshunt and run round loop. It’s on Google Maps too.

[CKPR]

Check out the oil terminal at Dalston station (the one near Carlisle, not the London one) for a long established small (two siding) yard that has survived into the present day  - shunting Dalston involves using the mainline to  run round  wagons.

[Fat Controller]

36 minutes ago, CKPR said:

Check out the oil terminal at Dalston station (the one near Carlisle, not the London one) for a long established small (two siding) yard that has survived into the present day  - shunting Dalston involves using the mainline to  run round  wagons.

There has been an article on the operation of this terminal; not sure if it was in Rail Express, or the DEMU magazine.

[MattWallace]

1 hour ago, CKPR said:

Check out the oil terminal at Dalston station (the one near Carlisle, not the London one) for a long established small (two siding) yard that has survived into the present day  - shunting Dalston involves using the mainline to  run round  wagons.

 

53 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

There has been an article on the operation of this terminal; not sure if it was in Rail Express, or the DEMU magazine.

 

Thanks both, I've managed to find some photos of this working, looks like another "point" (sorry ) to take into consideration

[D9020 Nimbus]

Bloxwich has featured in both Rail Express and RM in the past. If I remember correctly, it had a loop off the main line from which the sidings branched off (by a trailing connection). The loco would still need to use the main line as well as the loop to run round. At least one of the articles described how the sidings were shunted.

[jpendle]

The Waste terminal at Kirby (Merseyside) has a headshunt off the single track Wigan to Kirkby line. Trains then reverse into the terminal building.

The loco is released and runs round its train outside the building.

The train is then reversed into the headshunt and then forwards back out onto the running line.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Steveh145]

Hi Matt, 

 

Another location which maybe worth having a look at on google earth is Earles sidings, trains coming from the Manchester end have to reverse in off the mainline (Manchester-Sheffield) into the exchange sidings, my friend who is a Northern driver gets stuck behind it sometimes waiting for it to reverse in.