Restructuring of Network Rail

[PaulRhB]

6 minutes ago, caradoc said:

An issue we increasingly had towards the end of my railway career in Scotland was staff losing competencies; eg when SLW or TBW was required, P

Yes I was pilot working, groundframe operator and handsignalman for the land slip at Laverstock a year ago but now lost all the outside tickets as my medical was erroneously recorded as Signaller only in May and due to Covid couldn’t get it sorted. I’ve been asked three times this year to be pilotman for engineering and had to say sorry I’m out of ticket. 

[Trog]

13 hours ago, 96701 said:

Have you ever tried jacking an RRV on one side in order to fit rail pads between the rails and wheels on one side of the machine?

 

Yes it was very easy just tuck a pad under each wheel and have the driver move back 6", although I had to go back and put pads under the blade of the RR bulldozer. Before the track circuit would come up, as it was track locking a junction the signalman wanted to use to cross some tampers into the possession.

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Yes I was pilot working, groundframe operator and handsignalman for the land slip at Laverstock a year ago but now lost all the outside tickets as my medical was erroneously recorded as Signaller only in May and due to Covid couldn’t get it sorted. I’ve been asked three times this year to be pilotman for engineering and had to say sorry I’m out of ticket. 

I greatly sympathise, Paul. Despite occasionally being phoned at 0500 on a rest day because of a block failure, I always enjoyed working as Pilotman and much missed doing it when NR (at least in our neck of the woods) decided not to renew the competencies of resident signallers in one-person boxes.

 

John

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I greatly sympathise, Paul. Despite occasionally being phoned at 0500 on a rest day because of a block failure, I always enjoyed working as Pilotman and much missed doing it when NR (at least in our neck of the woods) decided not to renew the competencies of resident signallers in one-person boxes.

 

John

Yes it’s good to get out and remind yourself what the on track staff deal with every day and yes fun to get the drivers perspective too. I only kept mine so long because we were double manned so I could go out and sort points etc in the station without calling the S&T or MOM off another job elsewhere and waiting with stuff at a stand.

It made me smile when the split pilotman off as separate competency from Signalman, they asked if I really wanted to go through the hassle. I said can’t I just sit the test as I’m a Signalman I already had higher level rules so it would be a bit worrying if I couldn’t pass it! Got my first ride in a 56 last year  

[corneliuslundie]

I have often said that if the motor car was invented today it would never be allowed on the roads. No discipline, no overall traffic control, relying entirely on the alertness of one person, no physical protection of pedestrians on footpaths etc etc etc.

But we are where we are.

My comment about workers unfamiliar with the railway may be out of date, but for some time there seemed to be a lot of newcomer contractors working on the lines which had little or no railway experience. Hence the reference to Railtrack.

Jonathan

[Trog]

Must say that I always considered moving track inspection to possessions, and inspecting from motorised trolleys at night to be really dodgy. As the thing that tended to draw your attention to a fault most often was how the track sounded under traffic.  As for the trolleys it was always my belief that those riding them were probably so hypnotised by the flickering sleepers, that after the first couple of lengths they would probably only notice a fault bad enough to derail the trolley. There was also always the temptation for them to go faster to get it done. When I booked into a patrolling possession to look at track in some dodgy location, almost every time I would very soon get a phone call asking if I had finished yet, and would I like a lift back to save me walking.

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I always enjoyed working as Pilotman

Ditto, great fun. Although my then boss managed to take the edge off it by pointing out that he could always trust us to double check the arrangements because if they're wrong, the pilotman dies first (along with the driver).  

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, Trog said:

the thing that tended to draw your attention to a fault most often was how the track sounded under traffic

I always found the same with point fittings. There are some things that don't show up visually until after you can hear them. Being there with a train  passing over them was always a good start to checking them for potential faults.

[Trog]

4 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have often said that if the motor car was invented today it would never be allowed on the roads. No discipline, no overall traffic control, relying entirely on the alertness of one person, no physical protection of pedestrians on footpaths etc etc etc.

.......................

Jonathan

 

In the same vein what about platforms, where else would you be allowed a three foot six inch unfenced drop somewhere that crowds gather. Let alone using that drop as a barrier to keep those people clear of heavy machinery.

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, Trog said:

 

In the same vein what about platforms, where else would you be allowed a three foot six inch unfenced drop somewhere that crowds gather. Let alone using that drop as a barrier to keep those people clear of heavy machinery.

It will be shoe laces next as there is no standard for tying them!

[Gwiwer]

On 22/03/2021 at 12:43, John M Upton said:

Trains are getting noticeably busier again. Just today, lots of college students and many more long distance travellers with suitcases along the Sussex coast. 

And quite where and why the “suitcases” are going - or indeed coming from - is open to question during lockdown and stay-home instructions. Not to mention overseas travel bans. 
 

Individual experience will vary. But the railway that I see has become very much busier in the past 2-3 weeks only some of which is schools traffic. University students should not be on campus with limited exemptions yet here they are, travelling in droves, every day. 
 

This is not the place to wash political laundry but suffice to say the vociferous Mr. Cash has already been mentioned above. It was he, in the opinion of many I speak with, who prolonged the guard’s disputes long after assurances were given (as good as it will get) that they will be retained. 
 

NR seems to the average person to have far too many people doing nothing on and around the tracks yet takes ever longer to complete a task. As one example our local level crossing is to close for nine days while they replace the barriers. Barriers can be replaced in an hour or so if struck by a motor vehicle. What on earth takes nine days?  
 

And no account has been taken of the closure bisecting a community. The question “how will people unable to climb footbridge steps cross the line?” was answered with “find another way”.  Firstly that appears to contravene disability access legislation and discriminates against those with buggies who cross the line daily betweem homes and child-care / schools. Second the alternative road route is around a mile and a half long and happens to be inaccessible to buses meaning the “promise” of a bus when required is an empty hot-air promise possibly made by someone who has no knowledge of the area and cares even less as long as their job gets done. 

[Pandora]

7 hours ago, Trog said:

 

Yes it was very easy just tuck a pad under each wheel and have the driver move back 6", although I had to go back and put pads under the blade of the RR bulldozer. Before the track circuit would come up, as it was track locking a junction the signalman wanted to use to cross some tampers into the possession.

But Track circuits are being changed from AC or DC to axle counters system which operate by count in and count out  of axles as a checksum for occupancy,  as for human error in track inspections, a  lengthy but busy line had a tight radius  check-railed flat curve, the curve was   renewed over a weekend and it was several months and many PW patrols until an especially vigilant PW man noticed the checkrail had been installed on the wrong rail of the curve

rail

Edited March 24, 2021 by Pandora

[Michael Hodgson]

6 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have often said that if the motor car was invented today it would never be allowed on the roads. No discipline, no overall traffic control, relying entirely on the alertness of one person, no physical protection of pedestrians on footpaths etc etc etc.

But we are where we are.

 

We would be where we would be if the motor car hadn't been invented.  Horses bolting every time there was a sudden noise, mounted policemen chasing nutters for "furious riding", highwaymen being hanged on public gibbets.  No overall traffic control, no protection of pedestrians etc.

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

As one example our local level crossing is to close for nine days while they replace the barriers. Barriers can be replaced in an hour or so if struck by a motor vehicle. What on earth takes nine days?  

 

Which might suggest they are actually doing more than simply replacing the barriers; Possibly resurfacing as well, or upgrading to a different method of operation, eg OD ? 

 

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

NR seems to the average person to have far too many people doing nothing on and around the tracks

 

This may not be what you meant, but when observed from a train, yes there often are NR people 'doing nothing around the tracks'....waiting for the train to pass so they can work safely ! 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by caradoc
Grammar

[Gwiwer]

51 minutes ago, caradoc said:

This may not be what you meant, but when observed from a train, yes there often are NR people 'doing nothing around the tracks'....waiting for the train to pass so they can work safely ! 

As a career railwayman that is not what I, personally, meant but it is what Joe Public sees and comments upon.  

 

However it once took a single lengthman - very occasionally with an assistant - to maintain his patch of lineside where now it seems we have to wait until trees touch each other across leaf-littered tracks and the ground beneath is a mass of overgrown weeds, ivy, brambles and such before anything is done.  Perfect for illicit dumping on the "no-one cares" or "out of sight - out of mind" principles.  Now when linesides finally do receive attention it takes a gang of several people to cut what have become large trees, cut back overgrowth and so on which could have been dealt with on a  routine basis if managed more regularly by the old system.  

 

I know some jobs can no longer be done as they once were.  Trees cannot be cut during bird-nesting months; lineside grass cannot be back-burned to control it and the weeds within.  Weedkillers cannot be used.  But what the average person sees, as opposed to the knowing railwayman, is years of neglect and then gangs of men (usually still men) who, from a passing train, appear to be doing nothing because they are often standing aside in a place of safety for a few moments.

 

 

[43110andyb]

Cross discipline working has been talked about for many years and has been rejected for very good reason as Phil has explained.

Just to show how many base competency is needed (without including the faulting experiences that can only be garnered over many years of watching and learning from S&T teamleader royalty) I have shown below for S&T only.

 

 

[96701]

2 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

It will be shoe laces next as there is no standard for tying them!

https://www.ted.com/talks/terry_moore_how_to_tie_your_shoes?language=en

 

[Mark Saunders]

2 minutes ago, 96701 said:

https://www.ted.com/talks/terry_moore_how_to_tie_your_shoes?language=en

 

But has he got a certificate of competency?

[96701]

43 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

As a career railwayman that is not what I, personally, meant but it is what Joe Public sees and comments upon.  

 

However it once took a single lengthman - very occasionally with an assistant - to maintain his patch of lineside where now it seems we have to wait until trees touch each other across leaf-littered tracks and the ground beneath is a mass of overgrown weeds, ivy, brambles and such before anything is done.  Perfect for illicit dumping on the "no-one cares" or "out of sight - out of mind" principles.  Now when linesides finally do receive attention it takes a gang of several people to cut what have become large trees, cut back overgrowth and so on which could have been dealt with on a  routine basis if managed more regularly by the old system.  

 

I know some jobs can no longer be done as they once were.  Trees cannot be cut during bird-nesting months; lineside grass cannot be back-burned to control it and the weeds within.  Weedkillers cannot be used.  But what the average person sees, as opposed to the knowing railwayman, is years of neglect and then gangs of men (usually still men) who, from a passing train, appear to be doing nothing because they are often standing aside in a place of safety for a few moments.

 

 

The lineside vegetation growth is a direct result of privatisation. When contracts were let no thought was given to vegetation management, drainage management nor earthwork management, so no work was done on these for a very long time, particularly as maintenance budgets were generally last year's budget minus 8 to 10%. It is only recently that big ticket projects have been curtailed to allow more money to be spent on the bits that have been missed since 1994.

 

Since 1994, there has been a lot of environmental and working at height legislation been passed that has to be abided by, so it will cost a lot more now and take more time than it would have done then.

[PaulRhB]

3 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

As one example our local level crossing is to close for nine days while they replace the barriers. Barriers can be replaced in an hour or so if struck by a motor vehicle. What on earth takes nine days?  

This is one of those things where the local residents will be informed by mailshots exactly why it’s closed so long but that never stops the local rag from not bothering to ask but just getting worked up about it which then whips up a wider part of the population into negativity. 
It’s not just media laziness though, we all suffer from it and generally how often do you dig further for answers? See the suez story currently happening where the ships representative has corrected stories about it being refloated and people are more worried about one possible container full of models being on it than it may contain ppe!
The railway will never win in the general news media despite the raft of decent reality and factual  programmes with a positive image of people working hard. 
I had a decent chat with a senior manager on Monday about the ‘them & us’ issues amongst other things and why it ebbs and flows.

[Gwiwer]

5 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

9 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

This is one of those things where the local residents will be informed by mailshots exactly why it’s closed so long

As a local resident I can assure you that we have been told that the closure is “to replace the barriers”. 

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

As a local resident I can assure you that we have been told that the closure is “to replace the barriers”. 

In which case it will probably be to just replace the whole barrier unit, (or pedestal), like for like on each and then retest.
You won’t be informed about changing booms as that’s a job done between trains, if damaged, or overnight. It’s highly unlikely to be an upgrade to OD as that’s usually a 4+ week project due to new barrier machines, Lidar, radar units and all the new on track equipment you don’t see. We had extra manual operated gates on the road in for 4 weeks each to upgrade two of our AHB’s to OD. 

[Oldddudders]

9 hours ago, 96701 said:

The lineside vegetation growth is a direct result of privatisation. 

Correct. The RT1 contract effective 1.4.94 made no mention whatever. 

[phil-b259]

19 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

As one example our local level crossing is to close for nine days while they replace the barriers. Barriers can be replaced in an hour or so if struck by a motor vehicle. What on earth takes nine days?  
 

 

Barrier Booms themselves can be replaced in around an hour because they are designed to snap off via sheer bolts when hit!

 

Replacing they hydraulic power pack is a bit more fiddly - but again its designed to be replaced.

 

What you CANNOT DO during an hour closure is replace the entire pedestal and all its fittings - to do all 4 you are looking closer to a days work.

 

Needless to say all of the above work will mess up the train service - replacing pedestals will require a railway shutdown.

 

This assumes no work is being undertaken on the background signalling controls e.g. putting the crossing under control of a new signal box / centre or fitting OD equipment and which will mean additional time is needed.

 

Replacing the rails and road surface normally takes 1 -2 days depending on the level of work needed. Sometimes it is possible to maintain crossing facilities for pedestrians but not motor vehicles for part of the time but much will depend on the nature of the work being undertaken.

 

The final consideration is utilities - those water pipes, electric cables, etc  buried under the roads and pavements will also pass under the railway - sometimes at quite a shallow depth. If these need attention then this might only be possible once the railway / crossing surface has been removed.

 

 

[phil-b259]

19 hours ago, Pandora said:

But Track circuits are being changed from AC or DC to axle counters system which operate by count in and count out  of axles as a checksum for occupancy

 

Another half truth trotted out by management!

 

Down my way the preferred method of train detection is the EBI200 TRACK CIRCUIT! We have seen literally hundreds installed all the way along  the Brighton Main Line - and that includes Gatwick and Redhill both of which have seen remodelling over the past decade.

 

The EBI 200 has enhanced condition monitoring abilities over traditional DC and AC track circuits but RRVs, Tampers and the 'new fanged maintenance train' will all PREVENT some S&T activities from being able to be conducted because of their presence.

 

Moreover because of the way the signalling system is designed we cannot just go round re-setting axle counters in the middle of possessions to allow S&T testing - the dangers of such a reset being performed to 'get things moving during a failure' and end up with another Clapham junction crash is simply too great for the ORR to tolerate.