Restructuring of Network Rail

[St. Simon]

34 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Another half truth trotted out by management!

 

Down my way the preferred method of train detection is the EBI200 TRACK CIRCUIT! We have seen literally hundreds installed all the way along  the Brighton Main Line - and that includes Gatwick and Redhill both of which have seen remodelling over the past decade.

 

The EBI 200 has enhanced condition monitoring abilities over traditional DC and AC track circuits but RRVs, Tampers and the 'new fanged maintenance train' will all PREVENT some S&T activities from being able to be conducted because of their presence.

 

Moreover because of the way the signalling system is designed we cannot just go round re-setting axle counters in the middle of possessions to allow S&T testing - the dangers of such a reset being performed to 'get things moving during a failure' and end up with another Clapham junction crash is simply too great for the ORR to tolerate.

 

Axle Counters are now the standard (okay, it's not written down, but that's the preferred train detection for RAM's) for full re-signalling's. If there are minor changes, then the prevalent train detection is maintained, but if the BML was re-signalled completely from scratch today, I would go for Frauscher Axle Counters. There are procedures for controlling reset etc during possessions, so they are no more 'dangerous'.

 

Technically any track circuit can have condition monitoring equipment attached to the same level., it's just EBI Track Digital Rx's have got a specific data interface for it.

 

Simon

Edited March 25, 2021 by St. Simon

[phil-b259]

2 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

 

Axle Counters are now the standard (okay, it's not written down, but that's the preferred train detection for RAM's) for full re-signalling's. If there are minor changes, then the prevalent train detection is maintained, but if the BML was re-signalled completely from scratch today, I would go for Axle Counters. There are procedures for controlling reset etc during possessions, so they are no more 'dangerous'.

 

Technically any track circuit can have condition monitoring equipment attached to the same level., it's just EBI Track Digital Rx's have got a specific data interface for it.

 

Simon

 

 

Ignoring the obvious that if its not written down, in a safety critical industry like ours, how can it be 'the standard'?

 

Resignalling is expensive - and as far as I am aware is limited to places where the external kit is perceived as becoming dangerous (e.g. wire degradation) or layout changes are needed. Re-control is far cheaper and as such has been the favoured option where possible which includes the retention of conventional track circuits.

 

Secondly NR are broke and have no money, plus there is a big shortage in various places like testers. As such any aspirations the high ups may have for Axle counters to replace track circuits will take decades to happen.

 

Thirdly (and related to the previous point) these changes NR is proposing relate to what is out there right NOW, not what may exist in 10 or 20 years time.

 

I am very well aware of the procedures regarding the resetting of axle counters - my comments were directed to non-railway members of this forum who may not appreciate that there are stringent rules and technical restrictions about when a reset may take place* and assume it can be done on a whim as it were.

 

Finally I am well aware that its possible to condition monitor other types of track circuit - most of the 50Hz Ac and plain DC types on Sussex have been so fitted. The only type that was apparently unsuitable for monitoring was the 'Reed' types which have now been replaced by EBI 200s

 

 

* Normally Axle counters retests will involve the protecting signal being held at red and the next train through having to be cautioned as a safeguard against something still being within the section  when it shouldn't be. If a possession of the line is taken (note thats not simply a brief line blockage - its a full on possession of the line) then BEFORE any work starts and providing the section is proved empty of axles the signaller may active a EPR function for that axle counter sections involved. Once the work has been completed then the EPR can be withdrawn and the signalling system will not pose any aspect restriction on trains.

[St. Simon]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

Ignoring the obvious that if its not written down, in a safety critical industry like ours, how can it be 'the standard'?

 

Hi Phil,

 

I don't meant standard as in safety standard, more like a unwritten standard policy (I know that sounds odd, but axle counters are the solution we go for if a full scale re-signalling is required)

 

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Resignalling is expensive - and as far as I am aware is limited to places where the external kit is perceived as becoming dangerous (e.g. wire degradation) or layout changes are needed. Re-control is far cheaper and as such has been the favoured option where possible which includes the retention of conventional track circuits.

 

Secondly NR are broke and have no money, plus there is a big shortage in various places like testers. As such any aspirations the high ups may have for Axle counters to replace track circuits will take decades to happen.

 

Thirdly (and related to the previous point) these changes NR is proposing relate to what is out there right NOW, not what may exist in 10 or 20 years time.

 

I was referring to a replacing TCs with Axle Counters as part of  'start the design from scratch' sort of re-signalling which are, as you say, becoming more uncommon, rather than a single project in its own right. However, TC to A/C conversion can also happen as part of reasonable opportunity on smaller projects, depending on the age / reliability of the existing equipment (including a re-lock or re-control).

 

Yes, I agree that changing from TCs to A/Cs has little or no affect on the immediately problems that NR face, but I thought I'd just confirm there is a longer term vision.

 

16 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

I am very well aware of the procedures regarding the resetting of axle counters - my comments were directed to non-railway members of this forum who may not appreciate that there are stringent rules and technical restrictions about when a reset may take place* and assume it can be done on a whim as it were.

 

Sorry Phil, I mis-interpreted your comment!

 

Simon

 

[rab]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The 'new fanged maintenance train'.

 

The mind boggles

[43110andyb]

Axel counters have been introduced on some re-signalled areas In the NE (not ECML as I know). 

      We are just about finished Major T/C LEW (life extension work) on our medium voltage DC (AC immune) tracks with no plans of yet to upgrade the East Coast.

[Gwiwer]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Barrier Booms themselves <snip>   has been removed.

Which does not explain why a nine-day closure is required.

 

We, the local residents, were offered a Zoom meeting with members of the NR project team tonight.  A short presentation contained no new information of substance and largely failed to address the local concerns instead focussing on the wider "Feltham and Wokingham" project which - whilst I know that includes a much larger area - most present failed to see as relevant.  Use of terms such as "ROC" and "AC mode" meant nothing and did nothing to alleviate concerns.  

 

NR was left in no doubt about the strength of feeling locally generated by their works, their contractors, the absence of disabled access around works, the absence of rail-replacement transport and the absence of effective communication to the wider community.  It emerged that only those living within 200m of the station received letters advising of a nine-day road and rail closure which will affect a very much wider area and sever a community.  The post office is on one side of the railway - the village shop on the other.  Most people would use both on a day-to-day basis.  

 

We shall see what eventuates as I was promised a response by email "tomorrow or Monday at the latest"  

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, rab said:

The mind boggles

 

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/britains-first-workshop-on-wheels-set-to-revolutionise-railway-maintenance

[phil-b259]

31 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Which does not explain why a nine-day closure is required.

 

 

 

Agreed,

 

But they do demolish your nonsense about seeking to equate fixing a boom back onto major works.

 

I would hazard a guess that 9 days is the length the line will be shut for - not the crossing shut to everybody (though that may be the case for vehicles) and someone on the project team has got themselves confused about the nature of the auiidence they are briefing and thus what information needs to be imparted.

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi Phil,

 

I don't meant standard as in safety standard, more like a unwritten standard policy (I know that sounds odd, but axle counters are the solution we go for if a full scale re-signalling is required)

 

 

 

At one time HPSS points were the 'standard' to be used for renewals.....

 

I now understand that IBCLs are the 'standard' - yet that hasn't stopped the use of HWs to control modified layouts where they already exist in large numbers.

 

The Balcombe Junc - Copyhold Junc bi-di upgrade a few years ago could have specified axle counters as most of the track circuits were altered, new trackside locs and signals installed. However the designers went with EBI 200s and only put axle counters (backed up by said EBI track circuits) in the notoriously wet Balcombe Tunnel.

 

So while I don't doubt that in your (and other) design offices, it may be Axle Counters are preferred, that does not represent the reality of the situation out on the ground in my experience and is very different from the 'everything is axle counters' impression put out to the wider public by NR

[Michael Hodgson]

10 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/britains-first-workshop-on-wheels-set-to-revolutionise-railway-maintenance

How long till somebody announces that one in 2mm or 4mm ?

Scope for DCC gimmicks - the sides could be motored out, sound effects of Lord knows what happening inside.

[corneliuslundie]

There seems to be no date on the release. Has it just been issued?

Let's hope it is more successful than the High Output unit for overhead line work.

Jonathan

[Jonboy]

Regarding @Gwiwers comments on local residents to rail worke, we had the joy of the within 200m letters for the overnight piling for the electrification works through Didcot, social media community pages had people 3 or 4 miles away asking if anyone knew what the noise was...

Edited March 25, 2021 by Jonboy
Clarification of comment replying too

[Grovenor]

Hopefully those will do better than the super Electrification train did for the GWML.

[phil-b259]

20 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

There seems to be no date on the release. Has it just been issued?

Let's hope it is more successful than the High Output unit for overhead line work.

Jonathan

 

The NMT has been in service with NR for a couple of years now, primarily for spot rail repairs. Its an impressive bit of kit with on board messing facilities and having seen it in action replacing a short section of rail it makes life a lot easier for the p-way chaps. Doesn't help the S&T quite so much - as described up thread we cannot test the track circuits until its left site rather negating the 'keeping staff separate from trains' aspect NR are want to push .

 

It would make for an attractive model - as with Tampers etc it is capable of running about on its own to / from possessions under its own power.

Edited March 25, 2021 by phil-b259

[Trog]

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Which does not explain why a nine-day closure is required.................................

 

I wonder if they are taking the crossing deck up one week-end to do some work and putting it back the next.

[43110andyb]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

There seems to be no date on the release. Has it just been issued?

Let's hope it is more successful than the High Output unit for overhead line work.

Jonathan

The Darlington based one has been in service for the past few years! Jury is out to its full potential and  we have not been involved in any work with it within maintenance.

Edited March 25, 2021 by 43110andyb

[Ncarter2]

3 hours ago, 43110andyb said:

The Darlington based one has been in service for the past few years! Jury is out to its full potential and  we have not been involved in any work with it within maintenance.

Concept is good, but as per, those we have are not really fit for purpose. Lack of thought in the design stages and poor project management, results in a expensive train that can’t even carry 60ft rails. While I was SM, I was sold in how it would speed jobs up, revolutionise how we do things, in the end it delivered three defects and even then I had to send a team back to finish one.  Our routes one didn’t last long, being mothballed before being else where. Last I heard was it was being used for spares, how true I do not know. All the staff who went to work on it are now back in maintenance, most say the same thing. I’m sure some will like it, I am sure some will sing it’s praises, personally, it didn’t work for us and despite best efforts, it didn’t really deliver, hence it was got rid off from the route. 

[Mike Bellamy]

11 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

There seems to be no date on the release. Has it just been issued?

 

 

That press release was Sept 2015 (date is under the first photo)

.

[jim.snowdon]

On 25/03/2021 at 20:06, phil-b259 said:

At one time HPSS points were the 'standard' to be used for renewals.....

 

I now understand that IBCLs are the 'standard' - yet that hasn't stopped the use of HWs to control modified layouts where they already exist in large numbers.

Nor does it stop the Routes (certainly, the Southern ones) specifying HWs for points whose failure would be critical. Their 1970s engineering is simply regarded as more reliable than the watchmaking of more modern equipment. There is also the sometimes critical advantage that in a complex area, you can get conductor rail past them if it is necessary to avoid gapping issues.

 

Jim

[St. Simon]

On 25/03/2021 at 20:06, phil-b259 said:

 

At one time HPSS points were the 'standard' to be used for renewals.....

 

47 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Nor does it stop the Routes (certainly, the Southern ones) specifying HWs for points whose failure would be critical. Their 1970s engineering is simply regarded as more reliable than the watchmaking of more modern equipment. There is also the sometimes critical advantage that in a complex area, you can get conductor rail past them if it is necessary to avoid gapping issues.

 

Jim

 

All the RAMs always (cheekily) ask if HPSS can be provided as they are certainly the most reliable mechanisms, but the cost & availability of them precludes it most of the time. Southern certainly prefer HWs as the next best option, Western prefers IBCLs.

 

On 25/03/2021 at 20:06, phil-b259 said:

I now understand that IBCLs are the 'standard' - yet that hasn't stopped the use of HWs to control modified layouts where they already exist in large numbers.

 

The Balcombe Junc - Copyhold Junc bi-di upgrade a few years ago could have specified axle counters as most of the track circuits were altered, new trackside locs and signals installed. However the designers went with EBI 200s and only put axle counters (backed up by said EBI track circuits) in the notoriously wet Balcombe Tunnel.

 

So while I don't doubt that in your (and other) design offices, it may be Axle Counters are preferred, that does not represent the reality of the situation out on the ground in my experience and is very different from the 'everything is axle counters' impression put out to the wider public by NR

 

I'm not saying that everytime you do any work you must convert to IBCL and Axle Counters, it's down to the RAM and what they consider as reasonable opportunity to change  stuff. 

 

What I'm saying is that it is more standard practice that for complete 'clean sheet' designs (where you rip everything out and start again) for an area you go with LED signal heads, Axle Counters, CBIs, Workstations and IBCLs.

 

Simon

[Grizz]

Mmmmmm.... Great British Railways it is then well! 
 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/great-british-railways-for-the-passenger

 

I wonder if we will go back to the Ferret and Dartboard logo 

[PaulRhB]

40 minutes ago, Grizz said:

Mmmmmm.... Great British Railways it is then well! 
 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/great-british-railways-for-the-passenger

 

I wonder if we will go back to the Ferret and Dartboard logo 

Already a new topic here