So what’s with all this coaching stock business then?

[signalnorth]

I had the realisation the other day that while my steam  loco class ID skills are pretty good for Someone who was only 8 when steam went finito , I know almost nothing about coaching stock of the same 48-68 period.  I wouldn’t know a Bsk from a ....well whatever!  Wondered if perhaps I’m missing out on a source of extra rail pleasure here by this stage of ignorance!

 

Len

Edited March 27, 2021 by signalnorth

[rab]

I don't know all the abbreviations, but the main ones are:

B = Brake

F = First

S = Second

C = Composite (First & Second)

K = Corridor

O = Open ( Non-compartment)

 

So, for example a BSK is

a corridor coach with second class seating

and a brake compartment at one end

[ikcdab]

I think the problem is that coaches superficially look the same. Steam locos (apart from GWR 4-6-0s) tend to be much more identifiable.

However I find coaching stock a fascinating subject. Mk1s in particular were a complete innovation and worth studying in much more detail. I have been a rail enthusiast all my life and have studied most things railway-related. When I discovered coaching stock a couple of years ago it was a brand new subject for me and opened up a whole new area of interest.

[Steamport Southport]

21 minutes ago, rab said:

I don't know all the abbreviations, but the main ones are:

B = Brake

F = First

S = Second

C = Composite (First & Second)

K = Corridor

O = Open ( Non-compartment)

 

So, for example a BSK is

a corridor coach with second class seating

and a brake compartment at one end

 

Well you missed the most commonly used one out....  

 

 

T = Third

[ikcdab]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

T = Third

Or

 

T=tourist

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Roger Sunderland]

1948-1968? Third?

[Steamport Southport]

4 minutes ago, Roger Sunderland said:

1948-1968? Third?

 

Yes. BR had thousands of Third Class coaches.

 

Third Class wasn't abolished until the late 1950s when boat trains stopped using three classes. 3rd June 1956 according to Google.

 

But Second Class wasn't actually used on the coaches anyway. Only First was designated.

 

The Diagrams still would have had Third on them unless physically altered.

 

 

Jason

Edited March 28, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Steamport Southport]

6 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

Or

 

T=tourist

 

 

 

Or Trailer (or even Trolley)

 

[LNER4479]

I love the ins and outs of coaching stock ... and that has something to do with the fact that I worked on the things in the early days of my railway career.

 

In the late 1980s/1990s the introduction of second generation DMUs like the class 156s and 158s saw off much of the remaining MkI fleet but I was lucky(?) enough to work at a couple of LHCS maintenance depots in the north west of England where there were some MkIs in use.

 

I was also exposed to the whole world of coaching stock formations and diagramming which I found fascinating. That's led me to research and try and replicate similar arrangements in earlier eras (eg 1930s LNER) where it was MUCH more complex!

 

But, at its heart, it's very simple! All trains need a brake vehicle (so that's your BSK, for example), almost all passenger trains have a mix of first class and second class (formerly third class) accommodation - usually more second class than first class - and the more prestigious and or longer distance services had catering provision. Catering vehicles always caused the most problems but are fascinating vehicles.

 

Welcome to a fascinating world!

[signalnorth]

An so that’s what K stands for ! 
 

I might just get into this

 

Len

[BernardTPM]

Yes, K can be Kitchen too and B Buffet. Usually a B at the start is a Brake, but at the end is a Buffet.

 

So BSK = Brake Second Corridor

but RKB = Restaurant Kitchen Buffet

[Steamport Southport]

Here's a bit more info.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations

 

And yes, I used to always think it strange that it was Korridor.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited March 28, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Michael Hodgson]

Don't forget BG, GUV & CCT

[Steamport Southport]

All in the post above....

[bécasse]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

Third Class wasn't abolished until the late 1950s when boat trains stopped using three classes. 3rd June 1956 according to Google.

 

But Second Class wasn't actually used on the coaches anyway. Only First was designated.

Oh yes, it was. While the Southern had a fair number of "nondescript" saloons which could be 1st, 2nd or 3rd as required where the class was indicated by paper labels pasted on the windows (and antimacassars added if in use as 1st), they also had a number of Maunsell carriages which were designated 2nd class boat train stock and whose doors did indeed display a painted "2".

[Nick Holliday]

5 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I think the problem is that coaches superficially look the same. Steam locos (apart from GWR 4-6-0s) tend to be much more identifiable.

However I find coaching stock a fascinating subject. Mk1s in particular were a complete innovation and worth studying in much more detail. I have been a rail enthusiast all my life and have studied most things railway-related. When I discovered coaching stock a couple of years ago it was a brand new subject for me and opened up a whole new area of interest.

The period from 1948 up until the sixties was one of variety as regards coaches.  The ubiquitous (eventually) Mk1's only began to appear in late 1950, and mass production started later.  Until then, the latest designs from the Big Four were perpetuated in large numbers, some of these types not actually appearing until after Nationalisation. In addition, older stock, including many and varied designs from the pre-grouping companies remained in service well into the fifties, displaying many different body styles, roof profiles etc., often finding an eclectic mix in one train.

[The Johnster]

As a very rough general guide, the main types of Big 4 design pre mk1 coaches that you need to be aware of, some of which were still being built well into the 50s but were by and large all withdrawn by 1968 are:-

 

LMS- ‘Period 1’, built 1923-early 30s, RTR Mainline; ‘Stanier’, built mid 30s-1944, RTR Airfix, Hornby, Plastic kit Kitmster/Dapol, and ‘Porthole’, built 1944 -54, Ivatt development of Stanier, RTR Bachmann. 
 

LNER- Gresley teak panelled, 1923-1943, RTR Hornby, Thompson all steel, 1943-mid 50s, RTR Triang Hornby (crude), Bachmann 

 

Southern- Maunsell, 1923-1938, RTR Hornby, Bullied, 1938-mid 50s, 2 styles of windows, early small ventilators and later deeper ventilators, RTR Bachmann

 

GWR- Collett bow-ended, 1923-29, RTR Hornby, Collett flat ended ‘Sunshine’ 1930-42, RTR Mainline/Replica/Bachmann, Collett ‘Centenary’, 1935, RTR Airfix/Hornby, Hawksworth, 1942-mid 50s, Hornby. 
 

This is by no means exhaustive and some

pre-grouping designs lasted into early BR days, and I have not mentioned non-gangwayed suburban stock, or NPCCS, a whole vast subject in it’s own right, and one in which Big 4 stock lasted into the 70s and early 89s, in blue livery.  You will see that many of the post war designs had very short working lives.  Some LMS Porthole coaches survived long enough to be given 1966 blue/grey livery, as did some Gresley buffet cars used on excursion service on the WR in the 70s. 
 

By and large, windows, a good indicator of the type of coach you are looking at and very individual to that style, changed in appearance during the 1930s from quarter lights flanking compartment doors to full size windows with sliding ventilators, the compartments having to be accessed via vestibule doors and the side corridor; mk1s were of this type. Bogies are another good indicator, especially for the various GW types.  Some are indeed superficially similar; one might well need to look twice to distinguish between an LMS Stanier and a GWR Collett ‘Sunshine’ if they were both in a BR livery, but the bogies, toilet windows, roof profiles, roof ventilators, and gangway connections are all different and can be used as distinctive telltales.  
 

I’d say you are very definitely missing out on a massive source of rail pleasure, Len.  Coaches of that era were very indicative of their originating company and designer, and so for that matter were goods wagons and vans, signals, signalboxes, and a host of other things.  The variety gave them character, and at a big hub like Bristol TM or York, you would likely see most of the types I’ve mentioned over about an hour of train watching.  It’s not just locos, you know, and under BR many styles of Big 4 stock were commonly seen in a much greater variety of places than they had been before 1948.  I’m nearly a decade older than you, 16 in 1968, and count myself fortunate to have experienced it.  
 

We are lucky in that good RTR models of all these types of coaches are available to us, and that they can be experienced for real on heritage lines. The Severn Valley has rakes of LMS, GWR, and LNER stock and the Southern types are well represented on the Bluebell; that’s if the Covid restrictions are ever lifted

 

 

[eastwestdivide]

21 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I think the problem is that coaches superficially look the same. Steam locos (apart from GWR 4-6-0s) tend to be much more identifiable

Depends on your perspective. Growing up post steam, to me there’s only about 4 steam types: big ones (tender), little ones (tank), pointy ones (A4), slab-sided ones (WC etc). But I can tell most Mk1s apart from a distance. 

[jcm@gwr]

9 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

Depends on your perspective. Growing up post steam, to me there’s only about 4 steam types: big ones (tender), little ones (tank), pointy ones (A4), slab-sided ones (WC etc). But I can tell most Mk1s apart from a distance. 

 

You missed the ugly ones, Q1

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, eastwestdivide said:

Depends on your perspective. Growing up post steam, to me there’s only about 4 steam types: big ones (tender), little ones (tank), pointy ones (A4), slab-sided ones (WC etc). But I can tell most Mk1s apart from a distance. 

Which would mean only 2 types of diesel; with nose or without.  Oh, and Gronks. 

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

GWR- Collett bow-ended, 1923-29, RTR Hornby, Collett flat ended ‘Sunshine’ 1930-42, RTR Mainline/Replica/Bachmann, Collett ‘Centenary’, 1935, RTR Airfix/Hornby, Hawksworth, 1942-mid 50s, Hornby. 
 

The Hawksworth coaches, although a GWR design, were mainly a BR thing as only a few dozen seem to have been delivered before the death of the GWR in 1947, all post war and only ones from a few of the various lots.

So a complete train of GWR liveried Hawksworths (à la Hornby) is a figment of the imagination, the first full train of Hawksworths wasn't until 1950.

Edited March 29, 2021 by melmerby

[Steamport Southport]

Stinky boxes or sparky boxes. 

 

Gronks are honorary steam locos. The first one that they descended from was a rebuild of a MR 1F 0-6-0T.

 

[Nearholmer]

When I was very young, I divided big, non-streamlined, steam locos into "with elephant's ears" (smoke deflectors) and "without", but when I first saw a Q1 I was utterly baffled. Fortunately, I had my trusty "Observers Book" with me, so was able to identify it pretty swiftly.

[LNER4479]

In a similar (sort of) way, Mrs 4479 has only three categories of railway modelling:

Ordinary scale (OO-gauge)

Chunky scale (O-gauge and above)

Fiddly scale (N-gauge and smaller)

 

Thread drift alert!

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

The Hawksworth coaches, although a GWR design, were mainly a BR thing as only a few dozen seem to have been delivered before the death of the GWR in 1947, all post war and only ones from a few of the various lots.

So a complete train of GWR liveried Hawksworths (à la Hornby) is a figment of the imagination, the first full train of Hawksworths wasn't until 1950.

Yes, agreed.  I defined them as GWR/Big 4 designs.  The 'Elizabethan' was introduced in 1953, 5 years after nationalisation, with brand new Thompson stock, though I suspect this was the last full rake of non-BR designed stock for a premium service.  The great majority of Hawksworts, Portholes, Thompsons, and Bullieds were built by BR and first appeared in crimson/cream livery.  Many diagrams only ever appeared in this form, and any coach built after Nationalisation and before the introduction of the first mk1s in 1950 would come under this heading.  Building of such coaches was not stopped by the introduction of mk1s, and was continued well into the 50s, but I am unable to say when the last of such coaches were built, probably SR emu stock.  A very large number of Portholes were built in this period.