London Road - LNWR 1907

[Stan Owen]

I can remember gluing down all those packing slabs (C&L) and the rail chairs (initially whitemetal from Mike Trice, latterly C&L plastic).  Ah, happy days!  That board is now in its 41st year

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hi Stan,

 

the paving slabs are still available, now through Phoenix Precision, which is good as I shall need a few more for the new platform ends.

 

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

The wiring changes to the main control panel box are nearly complete, the rest will need to wait until I can set up and test what I have already done. So I fitted the support arms on the opposite side of the baseboards. I had to relocate one and so checked that the panel fitted okay. It is now the wrong way round as it was operated from the other side. That means that the existing connection cables are to the front. However as I had raised the baseboards a few inches I'll modify the arms so that the panel is angled at about 30 degrees so that the cables will be less obtrusive. The box, made by my late friend Harry is a bit too deep. but holds various ac/dc voltage regulators for the servos and MERG controllers, Cobalt point motors, etc.

 

 

This looks rather darker than it is in reality. I need to make two more umbilical connection cables (that system is a legacy of the original layout being designed for exhibiting) and have just ordered the wire needed to make those (I already had some). Two thirty plus way cables 1.75m long need a lot of wire.

 

The control panel kit for the storage sidings section has arrived from Model Railway Solutions has arrived and I'll start on the soon.

[1BCamden]

Hi Jol,

Best wishes for the new year.

Control panel looks the business, if possibly a little weighty, but plenty of room for a couple of handles if needed.

 

Thanks for taking the time to keep us all updated on your progress.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Thanks, its not that heavy but was made big enough to accommodate a number of 16vac to 12vdc rectifier/regulators as well as several long tag strips between the switches and connector sockets to arrange the wiring systematically and for fault detection. It isn't quite so neat now as it was! The more spacious layout was also intended to make it easier for the signalman at exhibitions to see what he was doing.

 

A smaller, neater unit would now be better but it was easier to keep this one and rewire it for the new track sections. 

 

I've just got to make the two new connector cables and will then start on the storage sidings panel.

[Brassey]

On 22/01/2024 at 22:09, Jol Wilkinson said:

a number of 16vac to 12vdc rectifier/regulators

Hi Jol, excuse the dumb question but what are these and do I need any?

 

Peter

[lezz01]

They change 16 volts AC to 12 volts DC. The rectifier changes the current from AC to DC and the regulator changes 16 Volts down to 12 Volts. Whether you need them or not depends upon your control requirements and whether you built you're own controller or just used plug and play components.

Regards Lez. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

They do what Lez described. They provide DC for the various ancillaries such as Cobalt point motors, MERG servo controllers (for the signals). 16v AC is fed directly to sockets for the Pentrollers.

 

The regulators are located in the Control Panel box and are fed from a separate box that houses the AC transformers. That is a throwback to how the original version of London Road was wired up (by a Senior Lecturer of Electrical Engineering) and keeps mains AC away from the Control Panel. 

[lezz01]

I built my own power supply many years ago. It has two 240V AC outputs at the rear, and a multi pin connection to a control panel giving 2 x 16V AC, 2 x 12V DC, 2 x 9V DC and 2 x 6V DC. At the moment it's only used to power my DC/DCC test track but because I created a wiring diagram and book with all the connections and wiring colours used I can just use it for whatever I need never having to ask myself "now what's that wire for?" Paperwork is vital when you build something electrical it means you are never scratching your head later.

Regards Lez.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Progress seem to have been a bit slow of late, various things getting in the way. I let myself get diverted into a bit of proper modelling occasionally as a change from wiring.

 

The main control panel is largely finished but some of it will have to wait until plans for the engine shed building is finalised and the tracks are laid. However, the storage siding control panel is well underway. I have used a Model Railway Solutions laser cut control panel kit. This can be hung on the baseboards edge and moved out of the way when not in use. About one third of the panel wiring is done, so it shouldn't take too much longer, although I also have to make the 37 way connector lead that will plug into the baseboard socket. A MERG 12 volt power supply plugs in to power the various controller servo and LEDs. The Pentrollers plug into the main board but have long enough leads to easily reach across.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

I have realised that I needed to add some more section switches, one of the problems about getting old is leaving a period between building and wiring the storage sidings before getting round to the control panel. While waiting for the switches to arrive I have made up the connecting cable  and tested the continuity to the various sections, servo controllers etc. so I am in danger of getting to a point where I should be able to start test running something later in March (we have a lot on next month which will prevent me from putting as much time into the layout as I would like).

[Jol Wilkinson]

Well, the time came for a test run this morning. This was restricted to the boards connected to the original but modified original control panel, so right around the length and ends of the workshop but not into the storage sidings.. Despite not having cleaned any of the rails, the Proscale Coal Tank ran quite well, but highlighted several issues.

 

The first was that there was no feed to the goods yard area, which has its own section switch and is probably down to a simple wiring error somewhere. The other issues were all on the original two baseboards which had been in storage/not operated since 2019 when London Road appeared as Scaleforum. Three points had no feed to the common crossings. They are fed by the integral switches in the Cobalt point motors. I had earlier replaced one Cobalt point motor that has suffered from drive failure, which I dismantled to find the problem (a partially stripped plastic gear). The wipers and contacts looked quite tarnished and I wonder if the same has happened on the three in question. These are all early Cobalt point motors, installed in 2010. I had to return two with defective switches shortly after buying them (and later several others with failed drives). These were all early models and DCC Concepts were aware of the drive problem. I'l have to remove one initially to check it. I am not looking forward to that as they can be a b*gg*r to refit from underneath. I have operated the Cobalts a few times hoping that might work but no luck.

 

When that is all sorted, (which may take some time) I'll connected up the storage sidings control panel. I have checked out the continuity of all the section feeds but still need to check and set up the servo controllers.

 

This afternoon will be given over to seeing what I need to buy from Squires (at Alexander Palace tomorrow) for the new platform ends. I am looking forward to getting back to some modelling as opposed to wiring!

[Jol Wilkinson]

The wiring to the goods yard has been fixed and the feeds to the point vees fixed by swapping the connections to the alternative integral switch contacts in the Cobalt point motors. Running isn't very smooth but as the trackwork, neither the original or the new has been cleaned, nor has the loco had a clean and service since its last appearance in 2019, I am confident some housekeeping will take care of things.

 

Next task is to set up the servo controllers on the storage sidings. These MERG controllers were bench tested when assembled but haven't been tested in situ so fingers crossed that I have got all the control panel to baseboard connections correct. 

[Stan Owen]

Jol

 

When John, Eric and myself built London Road originally, we used Maygib solenoid motors to operate all the turnouts and I made TOUs from Swish curtain rail with paxolin sliders which operated the droppers on the switch rails and a microswitch.  I assume you changed these for Cobalt motors after you acquired the layout?  I have no experience of Cobalt devices but they do seem quite expensive for what they are.  On the club N-gauge layout my friend Dave and I are wiring for CBUS, all the original Peco solenoid motors were replaced by servos in MERG mounts with the crossing polarity set via a microswitch on the servo mount itself.  During the recent MERG meeting at Retford station, I learned that Pete Brownlow is now selling a 3D-printed mount complete with servo and microswitch for a very competitive price and I was able to take a good look at this product.  His mounts are very compact in comparison to the standard MERG mount and are available for both horizontal and vertical action via his website at https://www.rmeuk.com. They are quick to put together and, with both the servos and the microswitch easily accessible, can be repaired if either of these two components fail.  Just a thought.

[Jol Wilkinson]

10 hours ago, Stan Owen said:

Jol

 

When John, Eric and myself built London Road originally, we used Maygib solenoid motors to operate all the turnouts and I made TOUs from Swish curtain rail with paxolin sliders which operated the droppers on the switch rails and a microswitch.  I assume you changed these for Cobalt motors after you acquired the layout?  I have no experience of Cobalt devices but they do seem quite expensive for what they are.  On the club N-gauge layout my friend Dave and I are wiring for CBUS, all the original Peco solenoid motors were replaced by servos in MERG mounts with the crossing polarity set via a microswitch on the servo mount itself.  During the recent MERG meeting at Retford station, I learned that Pete Brownlow is now selling a 3D-printed mount complete with servo and microswitch for a very competitive price and I was able to take a good look at this product.  His mounts are very compact in comparison to the standard MERG mount and are available for both horizontal and vertical action via his website at They are quick to put together and, with both the servos and the microswitch easily accessible, can be repaired if either of these two components fail.  Just a thought.

Hi Stan,

 

I did very little to the original London Road when I got it, just refreshing the scenery, repaired some of the cracked/split plasticard retaining wall sections and replacing the traverser which had become banana shaped. The Maygib point motors and TOUs that you built worked without problems so were left alone although I had to replace the CDU. 

 

Cobalts aren't cheap but nor are Tortoise or SMAIL point motors. However they do have the advantage of being easy to install and have built in changeover switches for connecting the crossing vees. Unlike the MERG servo controllers that I have used for the new storage sidings point servos, they also don't need any setting up. At least with the MERG units you can use the remote setting control boxes to see what you are setting, rather than have to press buttons in sequence and follow flashing LEDs to adjust the servo direction, throw and speed as with some other systems. I particularly like the MERG Servo1R controllers with the built in relay, which work out at about £10/£12 with servo and servo mount, but you have to build the Servo1R which many modellers may not want to do. I have also used some MERG Servo4 controllers, with 4 relay pcb units (about £5 each from eBay for the vee switching). Of course you also need to be a member of MERG to buy their excellent kits.

 

New and improved products are coming onto the market all the time, but once I have installed stuff and it works as required I don't see any benefit in changing it.

 

Jol

[Stan Owen]

Hi Jol

 

I was not convinced when I built the original traverser and, over time, my worse fears were realised - it really was a poor piece of contruction for which I hold my hands up!  We selected the Maygib solenoids as they had relay contacts built-in but these proved most unreliable which is why I made the TOUs to incorporate microswitches to change he crossing polarity.  I'm pretty sure a problem you did not mention was the "falling-out" of the relationship betwen the rails and the droppers here and there.   How have your done these on your new layout?

 

Interesting to hear about the setting-up of the servo-driven motors.   The servos on the club's N-gauge layout, driven by MERG's CANMIO modules operated bia CBUS are configured for direction of travel, servo-arm limits and speed via a software utility, FCU, running under Windows and once they have been set-up they continue to operate without the computer being required.  Were we building London Road now, we would certainly be driving turnout operation with servo devices rather than the "wham bam thank you mam" of solenoids.  The only downside is that servo operation is pretty much silent so that one is not longer able to to hear that the turnout has operated!

 

You layout continues to look great and I'm sure you're looking forward to just being able to "play trains".

 

Regards, Stan

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hi Stan,

 

the droppers were a fairly regular problem when I started exhibiting London Road after restoring it. We would get a poor/failed connection  although  the dropper seemed attached. A pull would usually remove them and so replacements installed, although they had to be soldered into the side of the rail rather than underneath. Eventually the problematic ones were all fixed.

 

A am happy to use some modern technology but aren't interested in being an electronics enthusiast, preferring to spend my time and effort model making. 

 

Test running has shown up a couple of gremlins with the electrics but should be sorted soon.

 

Regards,

 

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

The first complete circuit of the layout was completed by the Coal Tank on the outer/platform 4 line. I cant run through platform 3 or 1 until  the replacement Cobalt point motors turn up. Three of the original 2010 Cobalts had failed and were returned to the honorable folk at DCC Concepts who are sending replacements under their Lifetime Warranty scheme. I have also found a problem with the  four of the servos operating the points in the storage sidings. These are twitching when the loco runs through. The servos operated by the MERG Servo4 controllers are okay but the four controlled by the Servo1R controllers exhibit the problem. After trying various things it appears to be the wires from the switches to the controllers picking up interference from the loco motor/pickups. First fix will be to install shielded two core cable (now on order) to the servo controllers. Later I will fit suppression capacitors across the motor terminals when I service the stock.

 

So a break from layout wiring for the moment and I have started on the new platform ends. The platform faces are PECO but faced with Slaters brick plasticard, as the original layout and then the later extended platforms are.

 

[Stan Owen]

Hi Jol

 

Those pesky droppers - I suspect part of the reason was the flux we used (plumber's "evil") when the original joints were made.  It does stay active unless the joint is thoroughly cleaned and, over time, the joint may fail.  For all such work I now use the flux available from John at MERG which also smells quite pleasant!  Re your servo "jitter", this is a fairly common problem but I'm a little surprised you're getting it with a 4mm loco.  It can be affected by how mutiple servos are wired.   If the positive and 0v lines have been "daisy-chained" between one servos and another. this cause the effect as can the use of cable which is too lightweight for the current demands at movement startup.  Wiring each servo with seperate cable directly back to the control board may sort the problem - possibly worth try anyway.  On the N-gauge layout using MERG mounts and cheap servos we have not had the problem at all over 21 turnouts although the magnetic field associated with 2mm locos is going to be much less than in your own situation.

 

Went to the York show Saturday and caught up with John.  I passed onto him both the negatives and a DVD with scans for the photographs Philip Hall took back in 1988 for the original Model Railways article.  If you'd like a copy of the DVD just email me.

 

Keep safe, regards Stan

[D-A-T]

My modelling interests, thanks to threads like this amongst other things, keep moving backwards in time. I now find the pre-Grouping period fascinating for so many reasons I’d bore you all to tears if I tried explaining them!
But videos like this are an inspirational for so many reasons but mostly for showing that the 1900s were not black & white!

 

Edited April 2 by D-A-T

[Jol Wilkinson]

On 01/04/2024 at 17:56, Stan Owen said:

Hi Jol

 

Those pesky droppers - I suspect part of the reason was the flux we used (plumber's "evil") when the original joints were made.  It does stay active unless the joint is thoroughly cleaned and, over time, the joint may fail.  For all such work I now use the flux available from John at MERG which also smells quite pleasant!  Re your servo "jitter", this is a fairly common problem but I'm a little surprised you're getting it with a 4mm loco.  It can be affected by how mutiple servos are wired.   If the positive and 0v lines have been "daisy-chained" between one servos and another. this cause the effect as can the use of cable which is too lightweight for the current demands at movement startup.  Wiring each servo with seperate cable directly back to the control board may sort the problem - possibly worth try anyway.  On the N-gauge layout using MERG mounts and cheap servos we have not had the problem at all over 21 turnouts although the magnetic field associated with 2mm locos is going to be much less than in your own situation.

 

Went to the York show Saturday and caught up with John.  I passed onto him both the negatives and a DVD with scans for the photographs Philip Hall took back in 1988 for the original Model Railways article.  If you'd like a copy of the DVD just email me.

 

Keep safe, regards Stan

Hi Stan,

 

I wonder if the problem may be interference caused by pickups. I have a number of things to try, including giving the track and loco a good clean and service. I have a couple of other ideas, but won't describe those until tested.

 

I'll pass on the DVD, the original layout is back with John so the negs. and DVD are of more use to him.

 

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

Replacement Cobalt motors fitted and servo twitch apparently eliminated, mainly by rerouting the servo leads and switch feeds to the servo controllers. So the LRM Coal Tank and the M&L 5' 6" 2-4-2T have completed several laps of the inner and outer lines. Unfortunately I didn't video it but my friend Dave Carr was here to witness the event.

 

So I have got on with the new platform ends and retaining walls.

 

 

I trimmed down the back wall of the baseboard to get the reducing wall heights and the opening where the LNWR wood goods shed and gate will be located (those will have to be scratchbuilt). The platform faces are stuck onto plasticard strip, itself stuck to the plywood, with butanone.  The black plasticard backing for the retaining walls is sloped with a slight batter but the other, as yet unfaced, walls will be perpendicular.

 

Platform 3 starter was popped into place to check the hole for it was big enough. This signal was originally at the other end of P3 but is no longer required there. I need a Home/Fixed distant for the outer approach to P4 ( for which I have got the parts) and a three doll bracket at the other end of the layout for the approaches to P1, 2 and 3. I commissioned the bracket signal from a professional builder which has proved to be a major mistake. It arrived in early February, damaged in transit through poor packing, not working fully, poorly made and painted. I returned it immediately and was offered the option of either a refund or he would rebuild it, send photos and a video and let me decide whether I still wanted a refund. I asked for a refund immediately as I felt the general build quality was poor for a professionally built item and had no confidence that it would be reliable. However, he proceeded to repair it and sent the video and photos but I still consider it to be poorly made and finished. Despite reiterating my request for a refund as offered, nothing has been forthcoming and I am £200 out of pocket. I'll get the bits to build it myself as, despite my damaged eyesight, I am sure I can still do a better job.