Titfield Thunderbolt 70th Anniversary Range

[PaulRhB]

30 minutes ago, Corbs said:

Anthony's video is helpful on 'Lion' info

 

The magazine article quoted in there though is one of the problems that makes me wary. They disregard oral history as there is no paperwork to back it up, equally there is nothing to contradict it. The oral history matches the LNWR sale history though so unless something is found in paperwork it is the only source there is currently and it’s highly unlikely they guessed a name that matches the loco. Therefore despite the known problems of the human memory it’s likely based on truth and the consistent part is the name. 

It’s not a surprise the dimensions vary when the virtually total rebuild is documented although no drawings from that survive I understand, much like Rocket there were significant changes and such rebuilds carried on into the 1930’s for accounting purposes with other locos. 
Lion became famous as it stands today and while it’s undoubtedly not original it is definitely a loco of the mid 1850’s and as long as models are sold as the 1930, 1953 or 1980’s Lion then they are of a historically accurate version of that loco.
The domed firebox does appear to be a nice showy creation based on other locos as it matches none of the contemporary drawings or engravings which show a closely clad version a similar boiler type it still had in 1923.
The thing is it has now carried that for 90 years, longer than it did in service before being turned into a pump in the 1870’s! Personally I would choose that style for an earlier version as it matches several other loco types they had and is supported by contemporary illustrations. I wonder if that’s possible in the tooling if the firebox is a separate piece? 

Considering the documents available on Rocket that are in dispute I think we could go round in circles forever until someone invents a time machine  

[Corbs]

What about an original version with coupling wheels and oval boiler though?!

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

What about an original version with coupling wheels

 

coupling wheels? 
 

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

 

and oval boiler though?!

Yes although what profile was it? It’s not apparent on the side views I’ve seen that appear to be similar locos. I was only thinking the firebox is the very obvious change. 

[Corbs]

4 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

 

coupling wheels? 

Yes coupling wheels, part of Mellings' patents. An idler wheel sits in between two loco wheels and can be engaged for starting for when more adhesion is required, and then disengaged when momentum has picked up.
At a time when coupling rods were prone to breaking this may have seemed a good solution.

 

 

[PaulRhB]

32 minutes ago, Corbs said:

Yes coupling wheels, part of Mellings' patents. An idler wheel sits in between two loco wheels and can be engaged for starting for when more adhesion is required, and then disengaged when momentum has picked up.
At a time when coupling rods were prone to breaking this may have seemed a good solution.

 

 

Ah yes I was looking at the Samson drawing not the 2-4-2, was it used on the 0-4-2’s though as neither of the drawings he shows of the 0-4-2’s seems to have it?  
None of the drawings of Lion / Tiger in the L&M books I’ve got feature it. 
 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by PaulRhB

[Jammy2305]

5 hours ago, Corbs said:

Anthony's video is helpful on 'Lion' info

 

His recent book on the subject is pretty decent too!

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, Corbs said:

Yes coupling wheels, part of Mellings' patents. An idler wheel sits in between two loco wheels and can be engaged for starting for when more adhesion is required, and then disengaged when momentum has picked up.
At a time when coupling rods were prone to breaking this may have seemed a good solution.

 

 

So it could transform from an 0-4-2 to a 2-2-2 whilst in motion? 

[Corbs]

3 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

So it could transform from an 0-4-2 to a 2-2-2 whilst in motion? 

 

I'm not sure whether it would be between the driving wheels or the rear driving wheel and the trailing axle. Don't think it was in the video but might be in one of the books.

[PaulRhB]

56 minutes ago, Corbs said:

 

I'm not sure whether it would be between the driving wheels or the rear driving wheel and the trailing axle. 

But is there any evidence Lion was ever fitted with this device? I’ve been looking for references that the coupling rods didn’t exist at one stage or it powered the third axle but there’s nothing I can find so would appreciate knowing the reference for it on Lion. The drawing only shows it on a 2-4-2 between the smaller front wheel and the main driving wheel and Anthony’s own book on the locos of the L&M only says it was fitted to five locos but not which ones. The records and Anthony’s video say the wheels are almost certainly original and I’ve not seen an illustration of a 2-4-2 with even sized uncoupled wheels until the much later Webb locos. 
 

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

Don't think it was in the video but might be in one of the books.

I can’t find mention of it in either of the other L&M histories I have being fitted to Lion and Tiger. I think it may be getting confused with the other two patents of Melling’s that were fitted to Lion. The valve gear and ash pan?

A couple of books mention a rebuild with longer frames but there’s nothing mentioned about adding or removing the friction device. There is mention of Melling valve gear though. 
I am intrigued!  

[Corbs]

Ahhh I stand corrected, I asked Anthony and he said:

"It was fitted with his radial valve gear and feed water heater. Also very likely had 4ft 6 wheels as 5ft won't fit under the known boiler dimensions. Probably didn't have the coupling wheel."

 

Pity but makes more sense!

[PaulRhB]

Thanks, very interesting and obviously it worked well enough for others to copy it while single wheelers were still common. 
If he can turn up a drawing of the oval boiler I’d also be interested in seeing the proportions of that. I’m guessing here but I suspect it was slightly oval to gain more height in the boiler, and hence capacity?

[Corbs]

28 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Thanks, very interesting and obviously it worked well enough for others to copy it while single wheelers were still common. 
If he can turn up a drawing of the oval boiler I’d also be interested in seeing the proportions of that. I’m guessing here but I suspect it was slightly oval to gain more height in the boiler, and hence capacity?

 

I asked the expert again who said it was marginally wider, not through design but the way it was built. 39in x 42in and 7ft 4in long.

[PaulRhB]

12 minutes ago, Corbs said:

 

I asked the expert again who said it was marginally wider, not through design but the way it was built. 39in x 42in and 7ft 4in long.

Ok so probably not even noticeably oval to the casual observer then so probably indistinguishable from the one Rapido have already modelled as it’s 1mm. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by PaulRhB

[Corbs]

5 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Ok so probably not even noticeably oval to the casual observer then so probably indistinguishable from the one Rapido have already modelled as it’s 1mm. 

So barring the firebox, chimney, valve gear (not readily visible) and difference in wheel size perhaps it is not too far from as-built?

 

[PaulRhB]

Just now, Corbs said:

So barring the firebox, chimney, valve gear (not readily visible) and difference in wheel size perhaps it is not too far from as-built?

 

I think the wheels are original aren’t they? A longer boiler was fitted in 1841 but not of increased dimensions? They lengthened the frames but it seems generally accepted the wheels were kept. 

It really depends which early version is modelled! Development was so fast that significant changes were made in the first few years but they didn’t radically alter the appearance and unless you are saying it’s Lion as built the majority of its service career, 16 out of 19 years, was in the modified form which the Rapido model is closest to. 
I think you could reasonably change just the firebox to get a substantially accurate post 1841 loco. The tender and cab sides are probably the most questionable features after that but as there doesn’t seem to be any documentation and they look close to the engravings I think you could reasonably say they are feasible. The main apparent possible change would be making the cab side sheets into open railings as that appears to be the style on original drawings but it’s also highly likely they sheeted these in at the rebuild to provide some practical protection from wind?

[Corbs]

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

I think the wheels are original aren’t they? A longer boiler was fitted in 1841 but not of increased dimensions? They lengthened the frames but it seems generally accepted the wheels were kept. 

It really depends which early version is modelled! Development was so fast that significant changes were made in the first few years but they didn’t radically alter the appearance and unless you are saying it’s Lion as built the majority of its service career, 16 out of 19 years, was in the modified form which the Rapido model is closest to. 
I think you could reasonably change just the firebox to get a substantially accurate post 1841 loco. The tender and cab sides are probably the most questionable features after that but as there doesn’t seem to be any documentation and they look close to the engravings I think you could reasonably say they are feasible. The main apparent possible change would be making the cab side sheets into open railings as that appears to be the style on original drawings but it’s also highly likely they sheeted these in at the rebuild to provide some practical protection from wind?

 

We might be lucky and get an illustration of what the chassis block will look like, whether the firebox is full of cast weight etc.

[dibber25]

If the original or earlier version is deemed to be radically different from the current version then, almost certainly a complete new suite of tools would be needed, thus making both versions uneconomic to produce. The economics of these things only work when the detail changes involve little more than a different sprue of plastic parts and a few extraneous holes in the main parts. (CJL)

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

If the original or earlier version is deemed to be radically different from the current version then, almost certainly a complete new suite of tools would be needed, thus making both versions uneconomic to produce. The economics of these things only work when the detail changes involve little more than a different sprue of plastic parts and a few extraneous holes in the main parts. (CJL)

The evidence suggests it’s not that different Chris which is why I’ve asked Andy by pm if the firebox is a separate moulding and what’s beneath. There’s no hurry on that as they may want to keep it under wraps for now. 
Although a moulded alternative may not be viable a 3D print alternative firebox may well be and only require a bit of paint matching. To be honest I’d prefer to do that for an early Lion as the rest of it appears to be pretty close to the documented 1841 rebuild and the speculative bits of the tender and cab side rails are subject to guesswork as there don’t appear to be drawings to contradict the job done based on engravings so I’d leave them as is. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by PaulRhB

[drt7uk]

This might be old news to you folks but I had a good email exchange with Rapido yesterday who said that "The plan is to release Titfield items in their historical guises as separate items, these will be announced and put up to order on the website in due course" which is great news for me as it means I can get the Lion in the 1980s livery, the buffet car in the film's livery to go with my 14XX, and the buffet car in it's GER form to go with my C53/J70/Toby tram. Brilliant

Edited February 23, 2022 by drt7uk

[KymN]

On 24/02/2022 at 01:05, drt7uk said:

... and the buffet car in it's GER form to go with my C53/J70/Toby tram. Brilliant

 That's exactly what I want, without having to have a TOAD with it.  I already have a plague of TOADs.

[PhilJ W]

The toad has a detailed interior.

https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/rapido-trains-uk-gwr-toad-brake-van-oo

[rapidoandy]

Physical progress....

[NHY 581]

5 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Physical progress....

 

 

Well, that's inspiring............. Oh, hang on....

[rprodgers]

Presumably the buffet car from the film will, as suggested earlier, be still available to buy later sans Toad?
 

As at the moment buying pack 1 or 2 already includes the film Toad, that is in pack 3.

[BlueLightning]

1 hour ago, rprodgers said:

As at the moment buying pack 1 or 2 already includes the film Toad, that is in pack 3.

 

but the Toad in pack 3 is a different one to the one in packs 1 and 2, there were 2 slightly different Toads used in the film, and Rapido are modelling both of them.