Rapido dangles 3mm rolling stock carrot.

[Phatbob]

Having received today by e-mail Rapido Trains UK Newsletter No 3, I was intrigued by the following;

 

"If you think that the humble BR Mk I coach would make a model that every 3mm:1ft modeller would want, why not tell the 3mm Society?

Credit: COLOUR RAIL

 

3mm – Have your say



We've also made a couple of flippant comments about 3mm:1ft scale Class 28s in past newsletters.

 

ANDY: Again, just a couple?!

 

We might have made this scale seem like a bit of a joke but we’re serious: if there’s enough demand for a ready-to-run 3mm model to 21st Century standards, then we’ll consider making one.

 

We have to be honest though. The 3mm market is so small that if we were to make something, every 3mm modeller would have to dip their hands in their pockets and buy one. The market's just not big enough to produce something that might only appeal to a fraction of it. So we're looking at vehicles that will find a home on all layouts, such as the Mk 1 coach (see above) or the 16t mineral wagon.

 

With that in mind, we’ve had a chat with the 3mm Society and have devised the following plan. The society is to canvass its members over the summer via its newsletter in order to find out if there’s a 3mm model that would satisfy all. It will then report back to us and we can decide if such a project is financially viable.

 

If you’d like to have your say, click here and sign up to the society's newsletter.

We can make no promises but this is probably the best chance to see a 3mm:1ft ready-to-run model to 21st Century standards."

 

In my case, I'd have a go at 3mm if decent RTR stock was available, so it's a bit of a catch 22.  Some MkI coaches, 16t minerals, box vans and Brake van would certainly tempt me to have a dabble in 3mm.

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Phatbob
Typo.

[woodenhead]

Interesting, but a lack of a loco for said Mark 1s and minerals may be a deterrent to new entrants, i.e. it would satisfy existing modellers but may not bring in new ones to the scale.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I've always thought that 3mm was an intriguing scale and a missed opportunity in terms of RTR, kind of the Betamax to VHS, if you catch my drift (no names no pack drill - I don't want to be blackballed).

 

A buddy started investigating such and I've been, without too much persuasion, dragged along.

 

Some of my favourite layouts are 3mm.

The Kitmaster MK1 coach kits are still quite good - with detail additions - and there are brass kits too.

 

From what I can tell, FWIW, there is a shortage of BR designed vans and opens and, I suspect, MK1 RTR coaches, to the standards of Bachmann and Hornby's MK1 output would be welcomed.

 

I guess that the scale and gauge could be taken up by those other than the diehards IF a company gets behind such with RTR. 

 

Gauge and wheel standards are a bit of a minefield - Peco do a range of track which seems quite popular also the 3mm society do, iirc, track kits and ready made/hand made switches and crossings (points).

 

I think it's all feasible and a good shout with endless possibilities.

 

All the best,

 

CME

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by CME and Bottlewasher

[CME and Bottlewasher]

9 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Interesting, but a lack of a loco for said Mark 1s and minerals may be a deterrent to new entrants, i.e. it would satisfy existing modellers but may not bring in new ones to the scale.

Several kits and 3DPs available (diesels), inc RTR chassis - have a look at the 3mm Society et al. And re other steam outline locos? Who knows, baby steps, large oak trees from small acorns and all that.

Edited April 1, 2021 by CME and Bottlewasher

[woodenhead]

I remember the other year when the 3mm society had a real presence at Warley, as well as the typical old stuff from the 1960s there were a couple of proper layouts that really took my eye and I did seriously consider trying a kit but my lack of confidence eventually beat me to it and I didn't do anything.

 

Done well 3mm looks excellent but it seems mired in the past and seems to also have it's own OO/EM/P4 factions that probably don't help the cause.

 

Having someone like Rapido doing Mk1s and minerals may prod Dapol (who do mass production of wagons well) or Heljan (who cornered big diesels in O) to also take a look.

[Fenman]

1 April?

 

Paul

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, Fenman said:

1 April?

 

Paul

It doesn't sound like it and it sounds like it is something that would be done through the 3mm society and may be a commissioned piece of work with less risk to Rapido

[Phatbob]

8 minutes ago, Fenman said:

1 April?

 

Paul

Published after noon, so no, not a wind-up.

[woodenhead]

Four mill modelling in the UK is full of manufacturers and with the likes of Bachmann and Hornby now looking further into the past for models, retailer commissions like the sorts from Rails and then Accurascale's march on EE types it is will be difficult for Rapido to find something niche, but picking a different scale allows them such an opportunity.

 

The CoBo in N shows they are not afraid to do things differently.

[Robert John Davis]

If Rapido is going to experiment with a new scale for British models, I would hop on board with HO scale. Join the rest of the world and see where things can go. 

 

I am not anti-OO at all, just thinking it would be interesting to explore HO. 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Robert John Davis said:

If Rapido is going to experiment with a new scale for British models, I would hop on board with HO scale. Join the rest of the world and see where things can go. 

 

I am not anti-OO at all, just thinking it would be interesting to explore HO. 

 

given TT is still active in Europe, choosing a prototype that works in Europe as well as the UK might widen the door commercially.

Something like a class 66 would seem the obvious bet for TT gauge.

it appeals to several European countries, they are active on many routes and countries.

 

moving the needle, class 58 worked in several western countries, Class 92 also has toured about Eastern European countries a bit, and Chunnel.

 

i’m sure UK modellers may like a TT class 37.. they didnt really go into service in Europe outside of HS construction.

 

But a TT 66 would fit European stock & European market immediately, and obviously provide that feed into establishing if there is a modern UK TT market, whilst reducing the financial risk.

 

if it were steam.. a WD or an S160 comes to mind, or a humble J94... again it appeals to an established European market, as well as testing a new UK potential market... S160 may even appeal to US TT modellers.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by adb968008

[Grovenor]

Just note that TT has the H0/00 problem as well in that Europe and the UK use significantly different scales. And neither will want stock built to the other.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Grovenor

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, Robert John Davis said:

If Rapido is going to experiment with a new scale for British models, I would hop on board with HO scale. Join the rest of the world and see where things can go. 

 

I am not anti-OO at all, just thinking it would be interesting to explore HO. 

 

As much as I would like HO, I suspect it is just too close to OO to be viable, whereas 3mm is different enough that potentially a new market could be built.

[Robert Shrives]

 

Check out the 3mm pages on RM web . the N- rtr ( near ready to run)  range is slowly appearing as they are projects run by Society groups or very committed individuals . The 47 above with older resin body since upgraded with 3D print version - see  https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/.  The 03 shunter and a small steam industrial using N 20 gears and micro motors almost to market  and the designer has eyes on a popular smaller mainline diesel after that.  Both have presold well. 

The other option of 3D prints via shapeways - this is a Recreation 21 produced GWR railcar.    And homespun chassis .   Not being snooty in anyway but the 3mm soc is a broad river of a society and has many streams feeding it with NG to broad gauge tracks with the common 1:100 scale . Yet also has time to support 1:120 european work - where high quality models are common - central motored DCC ready chassis electrics from Tillig that are a match to the latest N chassis from Bachmann but have been available coming on 20 years - the scale and society has been hidden by all the noise from the big boys in OO and N but quietly march on. This opportunity is a good one and the MK1  offers a good launch point. As would a railcar as above. A pannier tank rescaled offers much as well. - I am not even a GWR "man" but understand the wide sales base the GWR offers.

 

Broad wide rivers do run slow and it would be good to see something but as noted the love of Triang TT and its robust simplicity- see the set track under the 47 - and it runs fine by the way !  To the 14.2 finescale group and a few options in between does mean the vexed question of wheel and track standards raises it head but as long as gauge can be changed  easily enough then existing modellers can  adapt and enjoy.   If wheels match Peco standards for its HoM range of track then opening up the scale for converts or new to hobby but tight for space but find N to fiddly  then that is the way to go.

 

It was serendipity at play that say a Blue and cream bus and the TT guys being closeish at Warley and Rapido bosses having time out saw the 3mm and seeds laid.  Hopefully in just a few years time at a future show the seeds will be full blown flowers.         

[Emmo]

My 3mm layout 'Uppingham' is booked to appear at Warley this year as long as it goes ahead. Lenny Seeney of Lincoln Locos (https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/) is one of my team of operators and he will have a good selection of 3mm 3D printed bodies available to purchase from the layout.

[NCB]

An RTR Mk.1 coach would be a good start. Most people could find a reason to run them; I say them because if somebody bought 1 they'd buy several. Also, it should be possible to design it so that different mk.1 coaches could fairly easily be produced. There is a need in the scale for RTR or similar coaches; there are plenty of kits but they are time consuming to build.

 

To expand the market away from current 3mm Society members an RTR locomotive would be a good idea. In my view you only need 1 type to enable people to start thinking of simple layout projects to get started with. It could be almost anything widely available in the 1950s or later. I'd favour a pannier tank but I'm biased! I'd look at anything.

 

I think a loco plus mk.1 coaches could really get things going, both outside and inside the 3mm Society. Don't worry about wagons; there's a huge range of quality easy to build kits available. Go for 12mm gauge and make sure things run on Peco track. Me, I do 14.2mm finescale, but if the stuff was available I'd certainly try a 12mm project. 3mm is a great scale, more compact than 00, but with modelling advantages over N; it just needs the right push to move forwards.

 

Re the comment higher up about 00/EM/P4 type factions, there aren't any. People do Triang, and 12mm and 14.2mm gauges,but they all get along fine.

 

Nigel

Edited April 1, 2021 by NCB

[luke_stevens]

The problem is: TT 1/120 or TT3 1/101?

 

I'm sure there is  market for a Cl66 in 1/120, as I am sure there is a market for a 16t mineral or Mk1 in 1/101.

 

I know that in the past Simon Kohler spoke about having previously wanted to (re)introduce British TT at 1/120.

 

If Rapido do make the move then which way do the go?

 

Luke

 

PS If I was them I'd go for 1/120 and then produce things like Flying Scotsman and Mallard which would sell in buckets...

[whart57]

It may be my imagination but its seems to me that the growth area in active 3mm scale modelling is the BR Blue period, which may not be that surprising since the teenage spotters of that period are now reaching retirement age. That suggests Mk1 coaches might sell - in blue-grey livery - but also that a range of diesels are needed. So would a first generation DMU, a different one from Triang's original.

 

The advantage for a manufacturer is that there are different paint jobs that can be applied to the same shell making it easy to expand the range. Some cunning design of the motor bogie would make it re-usable across multiple offerings, as well as - if really cunning - allow for drop in wheel sets for 14.2mm gauge to be supplied to those who model finescale.

 

 

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi all,

 

If they're serious about growing the scale, whatever they produce has to be aimed at attracting new entrants to TT.  It has to offer something better than what is already available.  

 

I can certainly see a market for those who want to fit more in their space than they can with 00, but for whom N is regarded as too small and fiddly.

 

For me, going for 1:120 has the immediate marketing benefit of being more accurate in terms of scale/gauge combination than both 00 and British N.   It would certainly make me pay attention. 

 

I feel the compromised 1:101 scale on 12mm track, while popular with those already invested, is unlikely to attract converts, and 3mm on 14.2mm is a non-starter without RTR track.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

It may be my imagination but its seems to me that the growth area in active 3mm scale modelling is the BR Blue period, which may not be that surprising since the teenage spotters of that period are now reaching retirement age. That suggests Mk1 coaches might sell - in blue-grey livery - but also that a range of diesels are needed. So would a first generation DMU, a different one from Triang's original.

 

The advantage for a manufacturer is that there are different paint jobs that can be applied to the same shell making it easy to expand the range. Some cunning design of the motor bogie would make it re-usable across multiple offerings, as well as - if really cunning - allow for drop in wheel sets for 14.2mm gauge to be supplied to those who model finescale.

 

 

 

 

As a long-time  and inactive 3mm society member - the key gap in support for the scale is locomotives. An d within that , there are steam locomotive kits available , but the product support for diesels is pretty limited. The Triang 31 was an excellent moulding for its day - but beyond that , nowt. There have been some initiatives to produce ready made 47s on a bespoke cottage industry basis. I'm distinctly tempted by the potential near RTR 03. That might actually kickstart a project. Beyond that....

 

So , a numerous , widespread long-lived diesel loco would probably be the best choice for a new RTR 3mm loco. On that basis, a Class 37 is a serious contender, as it can be used with steam but is still on the network, is not so big it demands a big layout, and no Type 3 has ever been done in 3mm RTR/ nRTR although Type 2 and Type 4 options exist.

 

In other words , if you bought one you'd have options to add a Type 2 and a Type 4 loco - at which point you have the core of a loco fleet. 

 

If you were looking at steam , then a MR/LMS 4F is an option. Something on a MR 0-6-0 chassis would open up the most options, because alternative bodies in resin /3D could be developed on a cottage industry basis to provide a range of classes. That means that you will sell more of the RTR model , since there will be a demand for donor chassis (A good choice of tender and that can be reused as well...)

 

I wouldn't look at 1:120. There is an extensive range of specialist trade support for 1:101 British outline, not to men tion the trade support for architects' 1:100 models. 1:120 would be start again with nothing , and therefore not viable at all. Even a RTR loco in 3mm is sticking Rapido's neck out a bit

 

 

[woodenhead]

12 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

PS If I was them I'd go for 1/120 and then produce things like Flying Scotsman and Mallard which would sell in buckets...

And what? Have SK claim they already had them in design stage - or is that part of your dastardly plan to draw Hornby's real intent out into the open

[Robert Shrives]

52 minutes ago, Ben A said:

 

Hi all,

 

If they're serious about growing the scale, whatever they produce has to be aimed at attracting new entrants to TT.  It has to offer something better than what is already available.  

 

I can certainly see a market for those who want to fit more in their space than they can with 00, but for whom N is regarded as too small and fiddly.

 

For me, going for 1:120 has the immediate marketing benefit of being more accurate in terms of scale/gauge combination than both 00 and British N.   It would certainly make me pay attention. 

 

I feel the compromised 1:101 scale on 12mm track, while popular with those already invested, is unlikely to attract converts, and 3mm on 14.2mm is a non-starter without RTR track.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If  the world was newly formed ( 7 days  and all that ) then 1:120 on 12mm would be a given direction I am sure, but in an attempt to add some fun the diety of model railways   decided otherwise and  1:100 or 1:101 (if excited by little differences) became the UK standard on 12mm gauge.   While a compromise of  Torrey Canon size and stickiness it is where we are at a with  3mm/ TT modelling main stream - in the broad river of the scale perception. 

 

The possibility of rtr at 12mm at 1:100 with all the synergy to available items will be the imperfect way forward, dilution otherwise will result in failure .  If work can allow easy upgrade to 14.2 then that is easily engineered in and a win win for all.   MK1  BSO offers a good starting point but a TSO would maximise sales - all trains "need a brake " but require several coaches  so a three pack of  BSO and two TSO for £150  has to  be a train in box starting point with a loco nearby - a pannier with Mk1s in Maroon ?  or a class 25 and blue grey...      

 

Look forward to Ben helping with a project ... you know you want to.

 

[woodenhead]

But if no-one can agree the optimum scale then it is doomed before it begins.

[Phatbob]

47 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But if no-one can agree the optimum scale then it is doomed before it begins.

Don't forget good people, the proposal under discussion is for a trawl by the 3mm society.  So sorry to cut-off discussions over UK 1:120 TT, but it's .

SK and the Margate posse may well be connsidering introducing 1:120 in the UK, but Rapido's carrot is definitely a 3mm carrot!  For what my opinion might be worth, I'd say new RTR should be engineered for 14.2mm, but supplied with 12mm wheelsets that'll work on PECO track.

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, Phatbob said:

Don't forget good people, the proposal under discussion is for a trawl by the 3mm society.  So sorry to cut-off discussions over UK 1:120 TT, but it's .

SK and the Margate posse may well be connsidering introducing 1:120 in the UK, but Rapido's carrot is definitely a 3mm carrot!  For what my opinion might be worth, I'd say new RTR should be engineered for 14.2mm, but supplied with 12mm wheelsets that'll work on PECO track.

I rest my case