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American style or open plan


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I used a rather intriguing title for the post, I did ask this question in my layout topic thread but only got one reply so I thought I would appeal to a wider audience. My layout is basically open plan with mountains and other planned scenic effects. I have a part of the layout where I could get more track work in if I used the American decked level method. What concerns me would this section be over powering? Can you mix both methods to best effect? There are plus and minus points, some of which are it would cross two windows, lighting would need to be added under the top level, would it restrict the bottom level views ect. What are members thoughts?

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Well with led strips lighting certainly isn’t an issue the main thing is how you transition between levels, helixes take up a lot of the space especially if you have up and down in different places. It is possible to use the same spiral for up and down albeit by making it a little bigger. 
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Must've missed the question.

 

But I might have answered with another, such as could you provide a photo of the kind of american layout you have in mind. I have only seen them on utube and I dont know if what I have seen is representative. What I have seen in mainly long runs of track with very long trains on them and not terribly interesting. The balance between track and scenery is a question of individual preference but some examples would help.

 

Personally I cant see any value in one set of tracks over another except for storage/fiddle yard. Multiple layers would be Ok if separated from each other scenically.

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Its largely a matter of scale, the "American" decked system of  layouts is well documented in American railroad magazines but the layouts are generally much larger than UK ones.  Size for size the Americans seem to use the same single level layouts in our sort of size sheds and rooms.   The huge basements common in the states, 30ft X 20ft and up make the multi level layouts popular.   The issues tend to be the sheer size of helix, even a 2ft radius one is 12ft per turn that's around  36 ft of run to rise just under a foot  which is a lot of running if your level  deck is only  10 feet long  or even 24 feet around one side and the end of a shed.    Its a lot different where the decks are 20ft X 2 foot wide and make up a 60 foot run.   I have a "Deck" only around 9" high for a buried branch but  it has a 30 ft ramp back to median level.  Its still under construction but will be very well lit with LEDs when in use and dark when not.   I will have to operate it from a chair and the rest of the layout standing up.

What doesn't work well is trying to cram multiple levels into a small space.   3ft 6" wide access isn't anythig like enough.

One of the very best US  layouts was the Gorre and Dapheteid ( pronounced "Gory and Defeated") which was fully scenic with multiple levels from the floor painted to represent a river to the ceiling through which the mountain tops disappeared.   It was brilliant  (though only capable of running short trains) Genius. Google it!

If we have more info on the size of your layout rom etc we can all air our diverse and divisive opinions and you will be better informed and probably even more  confused.

Edited by DavidCBroad
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21 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Its largely a matter of scale, the "American" decked system of  layouts is well documented in American railroad magazines but the layouts are generally much larger than UK ones.  Size for size the Americans seem to use the same single level layouts in our sort of size sheds and rooms.   The huge basements common in the states, 30ft X 20ft and up make the multi level layouts popular.   The issues tend to be the sheer size of helix, even a 2ft radius one is 12ft per turn that's around  36 ft of run to rise just under a foot  which is a lot of running if your level  deck is only  10 feet long  or even 24 feet around one side and the end of a shed.    Its a lot different where the decks are 20ft X 2 foot wide and make up a 60 foot run.   I have a "Deck" only around 9" high for a buried branch but  it has a 30 ft ramp back to median level.  Its still under construction but will be very well lit with LEDs when in use and dark when not.   I will have to operate it from a chair and the rest of the layout standing up.

What doesn't work well is trying to cram multiple levels into a small space.   3ft 6" wide access isn't anythig like enough.

One of the very best US  layouts was the Gorre and Dapheteid ( pronounced "Gory and Defeated") which was fully scenic with multiple levels from the floor painted to represent a river to the ceiling through which the mountain tops disappeared.   It was brilliant  (though only capable of running short trains) Genius. Google it!

If we have more info on the size of your layout rom etc we can all air our diverse and divisive opinions and you will be better informed and probably even more  confused.


yes a good point about room size. A bit more context, this is not for the whole room only just small section of it. The area of the deck will be approx 6meters x 70/80cm wide. The helix is not an issue as such as I will be adding a separate helix onto an existing helix, a sort of double decked helix you could say, the main issue is the transition onto the new level and how to blend the helix where it is hidden into the existing layout. The proposal is to have a long yard on the new level and I still have to test on the existing helix that I have just rebuilt for my long freight trains. I took a look at the layout you talked about, the rest of my layout is something like this and looking at this I need to clarify a bit,  I would consider this a multi level layout where as a layout that has specific separate levels.

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Maybe a photo of the location may help, the area on the left above the new station being built just under the lowest part of the monitor. You can just make out the thread bar at the rear on the right which is where the new connection  will come off

 

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You definitely have space for a decked layout but I would have said the aisles are too narrow to simply add a deck above the existing layout.  The separation between your low level and medium appears to be much like our FY to upper separation and shunting the FY other than the operator side road is challenging.

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8 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

You definitely have space for a decked layout but I would have said the aisles are too narrow to simply add a deck above the existing layout.  The separation between your low level and medium appears to be much like our FY to upper separation and shunting the FY other than the operator side road is challenging.


challenging in what way?

 

i think what I am saying is can you mix two different concepts of layout construction. With open plan I would say your trying to make a representation of area in a compact way, where a deck type is mainly concentrating on the track area. Can these two styles co exist.

 

one thing I forgot to mention that if I did build the upper deck that there must be no vertical supports obscuring the lower section. I think I found a solution using dexion to give support to the wood framing. The length would be at least 6 meters, if you look at the photo there are 3 uprights mid way at the rear which would be used for support of the front by placing 3 arms like a shelf effect.

 

 

Edited by Andymsa
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Ours is challengig as you have to stoop or sit on a chair to see and there isnt really enough clerance between levels to get to a train if there is another between it and the baseboard edge.

That's the  "Thing" if one level is comfortable to work on or operate then the others will be a bit or a lot too high or too low, and if the aisle is narrow then it gets awkward for bending , I thik ours is 3ft 3".

If I did a deck it would be tapered on the underside  from maybe 4" against the wall to maybe 1" against the operator with a bit of a lip to stop trains escaping and impacting the floor 4 feet below.    I did have a layout 60" nominal above floor level which was good but I spent a lot of time on a step ladder building it as it was an awkward reach to work on. Looked good when trains ran by at eye level.

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8 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Ours is challengig as you have to stoop or sit on a chair to see and there isnt really enough clerance between levels to get to a train if there is another between it and the baseboard edge.

That's the  "Thing" if one level is comfortable to work on or operate then the others will be a bit or a lot too high or too low, and if the aisle is narrow then it gets awkward for bending , I thik ours is 3ft 3".

If I did a deck it would be tapered on the underside  from maybe 4" against the wall to maybe 1" against the operator with a bit of a lip to stop trains escaping and impacting the floor 4 feet below.    I did have a layout 60" nominal above floor level which was good but I spent a lot of time on a step ladder building it as it was an awkward reach to work on. Looked good when trains ran by at eye level.


 

thanks for that info, with the calculations I made viewing the lower level is not to difficult. The upper level works out at chest height, the build was something I felt might be problematic for the top level but not impossible.

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The short answer is you can do anything you like. Personally I cant see any problem mixing styles - I am not from the hyper -realist tendency anyway.  But of course a situation can arise where the presence of an upper deck detracts from the lower one, and I dont think it really matters what the style of construction and scenery is on the different levels. That will be a question of position and relative proportions.

 

However, if you occlude the windows with the deck I think you might find the interior space that remains is becoming a bit claustrophobic. When i look at what you have in place already and planned without the deck, it seems enough to me! Also, how will anyone get into position to view the deck area as a modelling concept, your head will be at ceiling height. No doubt you will put cameras on it and display through the monitor system but what i am asking is will you or anyone else be able to get into a viewing position to even assess whether the question about mixed styles is relevant.

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1 hour ago, RobinofLoxley said:

The short answer is you can do anything you like. Personally I cant see any problem mixing styles - I am not from the hyper -realist tendency anyway.  But of course a situation can arise where the presence of an upper deck detracts from the lower one, and I dont think it really matters what the style of construction and scenery is on the different levels. That will be a question of position and relative proportions.

 

However, if you occlude the windows with the deck I think you might find the interior space that remains is becoming a bit claustrophobic. When i look at what you have in place already and planned without the deck, it seems enough to me! Also, how will anyone get into position to view the deck area as a modelling concept, your head will be at ceiling height. No doubt you will put cameras on it and display through the monitor system but what i am asking is will you or anyone else be able to get into a viewing position to even assess whether the question about mixed styles is relevant.


some very good points you have made, this has given me an idea. I will make up a temporary structure to see what it looks like, although I got a good imagination for these things a real world test will be better. Once I got something up will take some photos for feedback.

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