Very Light Rail (VLR) Innovation Centre and Rail Line, Dudley

[lmsforever]

Milton Keynes had or have not to sure if it is still running an electric bus service  recharging taking place at the terminus .When the bus stopped a plate rose from the road and charged the bus battery simple and it worked same with trolleybuses except the charger is above the bus.Pity London stopped their   trolleys best way to travel.

[Zomboid]

20 hours ago, John-Miles said:

Having watched what was involved with fitting trams into central Brum, they spent a lot on moving services presumably to avoid the man from the gas / electricity / water board coming along and digging up the tram tracks later and holding up services. This expense would be incurred even with Very Light Rail so I am suspicious of their cost estimates

I think this is a big issue, but if the teams are self powered the local utility works might be much reduced. As I understand it, a lot of stuff needs replacing because DC will have stray current in any parallel earthed metalwork (pipes in particular), which causes corrosion. Having on board batteries means that the return current never leaves the vehicle, so no stray current.

 

Of course it'll be twice as expensive in future to come back and sort out any metallic utilities in future if the route needs properly electrifying, so a technique to use wisely.

 

Personally I think that trolleybuses should be a big part of future urban transport. Add a battery which is good for 10-15 miles and they'll be flexible enough to get around obstacles and run off the end of the defined route, and zero emission to boot.

[idd15]

15 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

 

Personally I think that trolleybuses should be a big part of future urban transport. Add a battery which is good for 10-15 miles and they'll be flexible enough to get around obstacles and run off the end of the defined route, and zero emission to boot.

So a bit like these then: 

Salzburg trolley buses

Salzburg is the only place I’ve ever travelled on a trolley bus and it was a few years ago.  Whilst I was quite impressed it did seem to me that you swapped diesel pollution for visual pollution with catenary(?) and associated support cables running everywhere, particularly at junctions! It was quite something to see the collectors (or are they pantographs?)running along the wires with the buses swinging between lanes beneath them. Strangely I don’t feel I notice the overhead wires for our Manchester trams, probably a bit of regional personal bias! 

 

Do like the idea of these battery trolley buses though. My apologies if I have used incorrect terms above, but I’m not very well up on tram/trolley bus technical terms. 

 

Idd

 

[Grovenor]

The 'collectors' are not pantographs, they are trolley poles, hence the name, trolley bus.

Many trams used to use trolley poles, but pantographs are now preferred as the rails keep the trams under the wire and with trolley poles there is always some risk of dewirement.

When I used to travel to and from school by trolley bus we occasionally got dewirements*, the bus carried a long bamboo pole that the conductor could use to hook onto the trolleys and replace them on the wires.

*Usually at Denton where trolley bus routes crossed, I would be on a 210.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Grovenor

[Busmansholiday]

I'm a massive trolleybus fan and was in Bradford in February 1972 for the end of the last UK system ( @Enterprisingwestern ,were you on that trip using ex STD 1330 as well?), and I've ridden on them in Romania and Bulgaria (the Bulgarian Black Sea holiday destinations of Varna and Burgas both have them) since. Modern battery technology means that the need for overhead electrical wires is all but over, and as the technology improves, I can see the end of all trolleybus systems a lot sooner than later.

For this VLR I can see a use where it can reopen previously closed rail lines and link into existing light or heavy rail systems (like Sheffield's Tram / Train). 

I don't see it being used in town centres, electric buses are cheaper and far more flexible. Post Covid, I sadly don't see any investment in light rail for many, many years.

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

15 minutes ago, Busmansholiday said:

were you on that trip using ex STD 1330 as well?

 

ISTR I was working that day so had to forego the pleasure, but I'd gone up a couple of weeks earlier (midweek when it was quieter, too many bus anoraks at weekends!) on the train and sampled a few trips and taken a few pics.

 

Mike.

[Zomboid]

6 hours ago, idd15 said:

Strangely I don’t feel I notice the overhead wires for our Manchester trams, probably a bit of regional personal bias!

They're not that obtrusive, and you get used to them. Having the positive and negative wires up there makes it a bit more complex, but they'd soon fade into the background.

 

So far as I recall, I've used the trolleybuses in San Francisco and Geneva, and wondered why we'd got rid of them in the UK at the time.

[caradoc]

17 hours ago, Zomboid said:

So far as I recall, I've used the trolleybuses in San Francisco and Geneva, and wondered why we'd got rid of them in the UK at the time.

 

I've always wondered that too; Trolleybuses would seem to me to bring the advantages of quiet, clean electric traction, albeit requiring slightly more complex OLE than trams, without the huge first cost (and disruption) of building track for the latter. 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

12 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

I've always wondered that too; Trolleybuses would seem to me to bring the advantages of quiet, clean electric traction, albeit requiring slightly more complex OLE than trams, without the huge first cost (and disruption) of building track for the latter. 

 

 

You can't build a trolleybus to take the same number of passengers as a tram.

 

And the public still perceive them as a bus. People are much more willing to switch to public transport if the option is a tram.

 

I am moving soon to the Limousin. Limoges is one of the few French cities to have kept its trolleybuses. The network now has new vehicles and, I think, has been expanded somewhat in recent years.

 

The overhead can be a bit intrusive but not so bad if it can be attached to buildings rather than to endless posts.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 03/04/2021 at 17:11, Edwin_m said:

I believe the track is supposed to be based on prefabricated concrete panels, which can quickly be taken out if works are needed to utilities underneath.  Obviously this still stops the trams (and I think the rails still have to be cut and welded back afterwards), but not for as long.  

 

The promoters claim the reduced power consumption of steel wheel as a reason to use this instead of rubber tyre.  I guess it helps with the battery range too.  

 

As I recall, laying the track in panels allows many interventions to other services to be carried out with the concrete panel serving as an "umbrella" (Oxford Circus style to those of us old enough to remember the 60s - which means that we weren't there) over the works.

[Johann Marsbar]

48 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

You can't build a trolleybus to take the same number of passengers as a tram.

 

 

 

Well, you can get 225 people on one of these.....

 

https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/lausanne-starts-double-articulated-trolleybus-operation/

 

 

[Edwin_m]

Basically if you can build a trolleybus, you can build a motor or battery bus the same size.  And if the guided trolleybuses that ran for a while in Caen and Nancy are a guide, it will use about 50% more energy than an equivalent tram, as well as generating particulate emissions from tyre wear.  Trolleybuses are a niche solution with trams being better for high passenger numbers and self-powered more appropriate for low numbers.  That niche is getting smaller as battery technology improves, and may disappear completely.  

[stewartingram]

5 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Well, you can get 225 people on one of these.....

 

https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/lausanne-starts-double-articulated-trolleybus-operation/

 

 

They could try a double decker version.....

[Joseph_Pestell]

17 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Well, you can get 225 people on one of these.....

 

https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/lausanne-starts-double-articulated-trolleybus-operation/

 

 

 

Can you imagine the reception these would get in the UK, where even a single-articulated bus causes panic, especially to Boris?

 

I did ride a Lausanne trolleybus once en route to a meeting with Lemaco. I don't recall seeing any of those trailers - very interesting.

[fezza]

Wouldn't it be cheaper and lighter if it was built to narrow / metre gauge? 

 

Some old metre gauge systems abroad ran on little more than track and slepers laid directly on dirt. Some had very light vehicles. I recall see a failed Heliopolis tram in Cairo being pushed along by its passengers having being rerailed with the help of passers by. 

[Edwin_m]

4 hours ago, fezza said:

Wouldn't it be cheaper and lighter if it was built to narrow / metre gauge? 

 

Some old metre gauge systems abroad ran on little more than track and slepers laid directly on dirt. Some had very light vehicles. I recall see a failed Heliopolis tram in Cairo being pushed along by its passengers having being rerailed with the help of passers by. 

The track gauge has surprisingly little effect on costs, unless it allows tighter curves, but I think they claimed about 15m radius for standard gauge VLR which is better than most trams.  It might allow a narrower vehicle, but that's not really an advantage unless there are some particularly narrow gaps it has to fit through.  

 

If you're laying on a poor foundation like dirt or asphalt, a wider gauge is probably better as it distributes the load over a larger area.  

[009 micro modeller]

Will the test track run parallel with the Midland Metro? And is Parry involved?

[009 micro modeller]

On 06/04/2021 at 08:53, fezza said:

Wouldn't it be cheaper and lighter if it was built to narrow / metre gauge? 

 

Some old metre gauge systems abroad ran on little more than track and slepers laid directly on dirt. Some had very light vehicles. I recall see a failed Heliopolis tram in Cairo being pushed along by its passengers having being rerailed with the help of passers by. 

 

Britain used to have plenty of 3’ 6” gauge trams.

 

I think one of the advantages of VLR is supposed to be its ability to operate on existing heavy rail lines to cheaply restore a passenger service as well as street running I think at one point there was discussion about extending the Stourbridge branch further into the town, using the class 139s. So obviously in those cases using standard gauge for compatibility is better. I’m also not sure whether a narrow gauge tram would make the capacity and cost advantages compared to buses more marginal?

[Edwin_m]

3 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Britain used to have plenty of 3’ 6” gauge trams.

 

I think one of the advantages of VLR is supposed to be its ability to operate on existing heavy rail lines to cheaply restore a passenger service as well as street running I think at one point there was discussion about extending the Stourbridge branch further into the town, using the class 139s. So obviously in those cases using standard gauge for compatibility is better. I’m also not sure whether a narrow gauge tram would make the capacity and cost advantages compared to buses more marginal?

I think at least one place in Germany has used 2.65m width trams (the normal maximum for standard gauge) on metre gauge track, but I can't remember where.  They certainly looked top-heavy on a photo I saw 20-odd years back.  It becomes more difficult with low floor trams, which would be the obvious choice for a new tram route.  The wheels need to project above floor level, so must be fitted in boxes underneath seats, and with a narrow gauge everything is closer together so it's harder to fit a passenger gangway down the middle.  

[roythebus1]

On 03/04/2021 at 15:28, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Trolleybuses can be made like trams to recharge at stops without overhead wiring?

 

Mike.

Wireless trolleybuses? We already have them in London, full of batteries that the Grid can't cope with during the day.

 

[jim.snowdon]

On 04/04/2021 at 17:11, Grovenor said:

Many trams used to use trolley poles, but pantographs are now preferred as the rails keep the trams under the wire and with trolley poles there is always some risk of dewirement.

Pantographs or, earlier, bow collectors have the advantage of making the overhead much simpler, with no requirement for frogs and, with each wire run being independent, far fewer issues with regard to tensioning.

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

20 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Wireless trolleybuses? We already have them in London, full of batteries that the Grid can't cope with during the day.

 

And in part due to the extreme reluctance of TfL/London Buses to have anything to do with trams. Unlike other more forward looking British (and Irish) cities.

 

[jim.snowdon]

On 03/04/2021 at 16:54, John-Miles said:

Having watched what was involved with fitting trams into central Brum, they spent a lot on moving services presumably to avoid the man from the gas / electricity / water board coming along and digging up the tram tracks later and holding up services. This expense would be incurred even with Very Light Rail so I am suspicious of their cost estimates.

 

Slightly different topic, my brother was the site agent for Dudley Freightliner Terminal - I think this would be late 1960s. He worked for Bryant Civil Engineering at the time.

British engineers haven't really got to grips with how to lay tram track without the necessity for reinforced concrete slabs under the rails, or the notion that it is (with traditional forms of tram track) to trench across the track without having to cut the rails. Second generation British tram track tends to be over-engineered, heavily so in more than a few cases, with relatively little attention to the practical issues of how to replace rails and pointwork.

[Edwin_m]

40 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Pantographs or, earlier, bow collectors have the advantage of making the overhead much simpler, with no requirement for frogs and, with each wire run being independent, far fewer issues with regard to tensioning.

However they may require more supports on curves, because the wire has to follow the centre of the track within the width of the pantograph head, but a trolley pole can swing out quite a way to the side of the vehicle.  

[jim.snowdon]

7 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

However they may require more supports on curves, because the wire has to follow the centre of the track within the width of the pantograph head, but a trolley pole can swing out quite a way to the side of the vehicle.  

Hence the tramway engineer's art of constructing backbones and pull-offs. A 90 degree curve can be achieved with only 3 or 4 traction poles or building fixings. The wire alignment can be quite liberal as well, with 300mm stagger allowable for typical tram pantographs.