Very Light Rail (VLR) Innovation Centre and Rail Line, Dudley

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

And in part due to the extreme reluctance of TfL/London Buses to have anything to do with trams. Unlike other more forward looking British (and Irish) cities.

 

 

Although they have them in Croydon. I’m not sure if there’s a specific reason why a tram solution was chosen there though.

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Although they have them in Croydon. I’m not sure if there’s a specific reason why a tram solution was chosen there though.

Probably because there were several disused or underused railways that could be linked to form a reasonable network using a fairly small amount of new alignment.  There are very few such opportunities in other parts of London.    

[jim.snowdon]

They have them in Croydon because there was a dire need to get New Addington connected sensibly to the public transport network. Buses were not achieving that even back in the 1980s, with the whole area sliding into high unemployment as a consequence. The disused railway came in handy for bypassing what could have been an awkward route into Croydon. The other two branches were deserving secondaries to the main objective, with the Addiscombe branch not really going anywhere useful (beyond Addiscombe) and the Wimbledon branch in need of plugging into the local area with a better service and additional stops.

But, every move to extend Tramlink has failed, or died, as has TfL's interest in any other tram routes in London.

 

[roythebus1]

As you say Jim, every move to extend the tram network in London has failed so far. My former office in Mitcham backed on to the Spratt & Winkle, a 2 car train every 45 minutes would meander past with a dozen or so passengers on board. Later, after it had been converted to tram, a tram would pass every 15 minutes in each direction quite quickly, and nearly always with a decent load.

 

I was able to see the construction of the Croydon system from the outset and before, and tendered to provide the train replacement bus service during the conversion of the railway to tramway. Arriva beat me on price.   There were many problems before the system opened, such as the contractors not allowing for gauge widening on several sharp corner in Croydon, this resulting in track having to be dug up and relaid, and a dip in Surrey Street when trams would derail.

 

As for extensions, the first few trams were delivered with destinations for Uxbridge, Shepherds Bush,  Embankment, Sutton and a few other bits. But then Leon Daniels was in charge of First Group who had the franchise for tram operation at the time, and Pete Hendy, also with First at the time, was later in charge of TfL. Both I've known personally for the lat 50 years or so. What was not all that helpful was the refusal of Croydon Council to allow the trams to run along London Road, hence the circuitous routing round Croydon.

 

Proposals were in hand at the time to extend to Sutton, as well as along the A23 to Brixton and central London, the A23 being wide enough to take the tramway as it was the site of one of the first tramways in London. The other proposal was from Shepherds Bush to Uxbridge, again a road originally having a tramway. Again objections form the local councils killed the project. but quite why they are so over-engineered is a mystery.

 

I am aware that they have to take into account the problem of the earth returns causing problems with steel and iron pipework underground. The Luxembourg system gets round that by using battery power in the central area and seems to work quite well. We were lucky enough to visit the Luxy system at an open day many months before it opened. Facilities were over-provided with a view to future expansion, unlike croydon which was built with minimum cost in mind.

 

The Luxembourg system was largely built with EU money in the form of regional development grants. It's a pity the GLA and UK governments didn't make better use of those facilities to help build London's system. 

 

As an aside, my bus fleet at the time consisted of about 6 Routemaster and a dozen or so box buses. The first time tramline failed their controller phoned me for replacement buses, insisting we sent Rotemasters, he would provide some drivers and conductors. He knew we already had "tramlink replacement service " on the destination blinds as well as Croydon and Wimbledon.

[phil-b259]

15 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Although they have them in Croydon. I’m not sure if there’s a specific reason why a tram solution was chosen there though.

 

Trams usually work best when they are not sharing road space with regular traffic. Like Manchester, Birmingham and to a degree Nottingham / Sheffield the exsistance of underused / disused railways or wide roads allows this separation to be achieved with relative ease. South London by contrast usually lacks the above features - Croydon was the exception with the W Croydon - Wimbledon shuttle and the underused / disused Adiscombe / Woodside - Selsdon railways which could be used to create a network.

 

12 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

 

But, every move to extend Tramlink has failed, or died, as has TfL's interest in any other tram routes in London.

 

 

Mainly because any Croydon extension is going to involve sharing road space with strategic roads! Going north from Croydon it isn't long till you hit the congested A23 - one of the main arteries into London from the south despite its single carriageway nature. Going south its a similar problem in that at Purley you slam into the busy A23 and A22. Attempts to bring the tramway to Sutton mean extensive street running will be needed.

 

On a wider London Basis - the West London tram was sunk because once you got east of Hanwell the roadspace simply isn't there to have a dedicated tramway meaning significant traffic restrictions and disruptions to residents lives would be needed if the Trams were going to achieve any improvements over the buses that ply the route. Unsurprisingly residents mounted a successful campaign and the scheme was dropped - it would have been a different situation if the roads were wide enough to have a dedicated tramway all the way through to Shephards Bush.

 

It was a similar story with the cross river tram scheme from Waterloo to Kings Cross - even though its inside the congestion charge zone the roads are hardly quiet streets.

Edited April 10, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

21 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

...the A23 being wide enough to take the tramway as it was the site of one of the first tramways in London.

 

IIRC the A23 is NOT wide enough for a modern segregated Tramway all the way along it - there are numerous pinch points where mixing with regular traffic would be needed. This mixing with regular traffic (and the ability for delays) significantly reduces one of the key advantages of trams over buses (faster journey times) while also increasing risks (pedestrian and vehicle interaction)

 

So while Sheffield does use extensive street running (notably on the Hillsborough branch) said roads are not part of the strategic road network as the parallel dual carriageway A61 takes most traffic. Croydon, and London (particularly south London) in general doesn't have that luxury.

[Ben B]

58 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

So while Sheffield does use extensive street running (notably on the Hillsborough branch) said roads are not part of the strategic road network as the parallel dual carriageway A61 takes most traffic. Croydon, and London (particularly south London) in general doesn't have that luxury.

 

There's a gallery I work with quite a bit in Hillsborough in more normal times, on the tram line, and it's still novel seeing trams passing the place.  I can remember how weird it was first seeing a tram in the rear-view mirror, being followed by one when delivering some work there about a decade ago.  I grew up in the West Mids where the Metro at that stage was basically a light railway (I hadn't used the Wolvo end with the street running so only ever thought of it in terms of running on the old GWR formation).  The only street-running trams I'd come across were in Blackpool as a kid up to then. 

 

Getting back to the Dudley light rail system, is there any plan to link the test track physically to the Metro, or use the wider formation out as far as Dudley Port?  Some years ago, when the light rail factory was being first proposed, there was talk of a test track/public transport shuttle service out as far as Dudley Port as an interchange with the mainline.  I'd assume that's been replaced with the test track through the tunnel instead to make space for the Metro, but just wondered.  I can remember some talk of modern railcars outshopped to look like GWR streamlined cars at one point for the Dudley Port run.

 

I wonder if the Black Country Museum would consider extending their trolleybus/tram line out as far as the planned Metro stop?  That would be one hell of an inter-connected system, and a way of encouraging visitors to use the tram to get to the museum.  

[Enterprisingwestern]

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Mainly because any Croydon extension is going to involve sharing road space with strategic roads! Going north from Croydon it isn't long till you hit the congested A23 - one of the main arteries into London from the south despite its single carriageway nature. Going south its a similar problem in that at Purley you slam into the busy A23 and A22. Attempts to bring the tramway to Sutton mean extensive street running will be needed.

 

Isn't this the tail wagging the dog, I thought the whole idea of public transport was to take cars off the road?

Apart from in some situations there isn't an alternative, but street running is encouraged as it is supposed to make it inconvenient for car drivers and make them want to use the tram, the fly in the ointment being that all it does is create rat runs as drivers find avoiding routes.

 

Mike.

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Isn't this the tail wagging the dog, I thought the whole idea of public transport was to take cars off the road?

 

If so the Government have a funny way of doing it!

 

Its a sad fact that with fuel duty continually being frozen while PT fares rise and with car firms offering all sorts of creative options to finance cars, private motoring remains popular.

 

6 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 

Apart from in some situations there isn't an alternative, but street running is encouraged as it is supposed to make it inconvenient for car drivers and make them want to use the tram, the fly in the ointment being that all it does is create rat runs as drivers find avoiding routes.

 

 

As a general rule many people like motor cars. Lets think about it for a moment - you get nice comfy seats, entertainment options of your choosing not to mention being  in total control of your own timetable.

 

The main reason why people, particularly commuters, chose public transport is the journey is quicker - not that it is necessarily more comfortable or convenient than driving.

 

If your tram is going to be stuck in traffic why on earth would somebody pay to sit on a tram when they could be in their car?

 

Its why we have bus lanes! - in theory the downsides of a bus (it stops frequently, seats are not necessarily the most comfortable, you are subjected to noise or other annoyances from others) are mitigated to an extent because you are not sitting in a big queue of traffic.

 

Hence the desire for modern tramways to NOT share road space with ordinary traffic and preferably use dedicated corridors where higher speeds are possible.

 

The current Tramlink does this by using ex railway alignments and new build segregated track outside the centre of Croydon. Birmingham and Nottingham largely do the same with only Sheffield and latterly Manchester having significant on street mileage - but even then they use roads which do not form part of the strategic road network.

 

You also need to consider that in the case of the A23, a large amount of the traffic is not heading for Croydon anyway! It is after all the main road linking London with East Surrey and much of Sussex even if it is a single carriageway route rather than the likes of the dualled A2 out to Kent or the A3 to the south west. Its one big factor that the Brighton main line can use to its advantage - yet plenty of people still drive consequently modal shift opportunities are relatively limited.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

is cheap to borrow

[roythebus1]

I mentioned a while ago on another thread that the Mile End Road going out of London to the east would make an ideal tram route and suggested that as the 6 lane road is now basically a 2 lane road, the space taken by cycle paths seem to be the same as that required by a light rail/tramway. Maybe that is part of Citizen Khan's plan? After all, Mile End Road had trams from about 1890, then trolleybuses, then mayhem, despite the District Railway runs beneath it from Aldgate to Bow Road.

 

[ess1uk]

They are using Dudley to test new telecommunications kit in the tunnel too