Wiring DCC electrofrog crossover

[EWS60065]

Hi all, I'm a bit stuck with getting a crossover to work. Locos quite often struggle to get over the crossing part without stalling or making buzzing noises. This is the diagram where red and black arrows are the power feeds, blue boxes insulated fish plates and green lines frog juicer connections (that little silver wire you get coming out from the underneath of the points). The points are code 75 electrofrog running on DCC. 

What is it I'm doing wrong? Should the power feeds go at the toe of the points or doesn't it matter, I assumed it didn't matter as when I put them slightly further up/down the line due to space restrictions they still were attached to the same length of connected metal rail. 

Thanks for taking time to look.

Edited April 2, 2021 by GWR5764

[ITG]

Basic wiring looks ok to me, but is that a black feed to the rail inside the insulated rail joiners of the lower point? That would be better placed further to the right, before the point. Though not critical, I’d think.

Where do the frog wires go to? What is switching the frog power? Is the power to the 2 frogs being switched in the same direction/polarity? 

Did you modify the points, so as not to rely on blade contact only?

 

Ian

Edited April 2, 2021 by ITG
Added thoughts

[KingEdwardII]

I'd start by checking out all the sections of rail with a multimeter, to see whether they have the polarity you expect - or even worse, whether they have no power at all!.

 

One question to ask is how power is reaching the switch rails of the turnouts. If you're relying on the contacts between the blades and the stock rail then that might be a cause of the problem, since these contacts can degrade over time.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Grovenor]

27 minutes ago, ITG said:

Basic wiring looks ok to me, but is that a black feed to the rail inside the insulated rail joiners of the lower point? That would be better placed further to the right, before the point. Though not critical, I’d think.

Where do the frog wires go to? What is switching the frog power? Is the power to the 2 frogs being switched in the same direction/polarity? 

Did you modify the points, so as not to rely on blade contact only?

 

Ian

The black feeds are fine, as said by the OP anywhere on a rail is OK.

Frog switching OP says frog juicers so should be fine if they are working.

Blade contact, yes that is a possible problem.

[EWS60065]

41 minutes ago, ITG said:

Basic wiring looks ok to me, but is that a black feed to the rail inside the insulated rail joiners of the lower point? That would be better placed further to the right, before the point. Though not critical, I’d think.

Where do the frog wires go to? What is switching the frog power? Is the power to the 2 frogs being switched in the same direction/polarity? 

Did you modify the points, so as not to rely on blade contact only?

 

Ian

Thank you Ian. Ok, here is an image of the actual points. The two feeds for the top point are just further down the line out of shot.

Yes I have modified the points (the usual cutting wires and soldering two more on method). The frog wire goes to the F terminal on a gaugemaster autofrog on both points.

[EWS60065]

53 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

I'd start by checking out all the sections of rail with a multimeter, to see whether they have the polarity you expect - or even worse, whether they have no power at all!.

 

One question to ask is how power is reaching the switch rails of the turnouts. If you're relying on the contacts between the blades and the stock rail then that might be a cause of the problem, since these contacts can degrade over time.

 

Yours, Mike.

Thanks. I discovered using a track tester (I will get around to having a look with a multimeter) that one turn out of each point will always be dead. Usually they then become live when a train runs over it or when I bridge the gap between the isolated frog and main running line (due to the autofrog?). However on this particular section the frog does not seem to become correctly polarised when running on it, maybe it is because instead of leading on to a live main line the first point instead just leads on to another isolated frog. 

Another thing I should mention is that all of my points trigger a short buzzing sound from the juicer when I run over them after switching the direction. Is this supposed to happen? After doing it a lot the juicers become warm. Additionally, the train tech track tester weirdly now shows green even though it is a DCC layout, surely it should show orange??

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by GWR5764

[melmerby]

16 minutes ago, GWR5764 said:

 

Yes I have modified the points (the usual cutting wires and soldering two more on method). The frog wire goes to the F terminal on a gaugemaster autofrog on both points.

The same F terminal on one juicer?

Surely if so that is wrong as the two frogs need to be different.

Edited April 2, 2021 by melmerby

[EWS60065]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The same F terminal on one juicer?

Surely if so that is wrong as the two frogs need to be different.

Sorry no I meant each point's frog wire goes to an individual juicer 

[KingEdwardII]

16 minutes ago, GWR5764 said:

However on this particular section the frog does not seem to become correctly polarised when running on it,

I have to say that I am not familiar with frog juicers, since I use point motors with built-in switches to set the polarity of my frogs. 

 

However, if you run a train over the crossover (i.e. curved route over both points) then once you have done that I would expect the polarity of the tracks to be correct all the way along that route - and all sections of rail on that route should be powered. If that isn't the case, then I can only assume that the wiring is incorrect somewhere. You indicate in your comment that there is a problem, but I'm not clear what part of the track you are referring to, so it's hard to suggest a fix.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[Yardman]

details shown here.

http://a19modelrailwayclub.org/tonys-dcc-workshop/complex-pointwork-wiring-for-dcc/

[EWS60065]

10 minutes ago, Yardman said:

details shown here.

http://a19modelrailwayclub.org/tonys-dcc-workshop/complex-pointwork-wiring-for-dcc/

Thanks, does seem to be what I've done though 

[EWS60065]

28 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

I have to say that I am not familiar with frog juicers, since I use point motors with built-in switches to set the polarity of my frogs. 

 

However, if you run a train over the crossover (i.e. curved route over both points) then once you have done that I would expect the polarity of the tracks to be correct all the way along that route - and all sections of rail on that route should be powered. If that isn't the case, then I can only assume that the wiring is incorrect somewhere. You indicate in your comment that there is a problem, but I'm not clear what part of the track you are referring to, so it's hard to suggest a fix.

 

Yours,  Mike.

The problem is that when I run a loco over the crossover there is significant buzzing, flickering of lights and slowing down/stopping. All of my points buzz slightly when driven over but not like this. I've wired it up as most articles seem to say.

[KingEdwardII]

1 minute ago, GWR5764 said:

significant buzzing, flickering of lights and slowing down/stopping.

I come back to my question - after a train has run over the crossover, is every section of track on that route powered and of the correct polarity? 

 

If the answer to that question is "yes", then we can eliminate any wiring problems as being the cause.

If "no" then there is some wiring to fix.

 

If "yes" then I'd next ask whether there is a problem with either or both of the frog juicers - they may be malfunctioning. I think the simplest way to check this out would be to replace them one at a time with another frog juicer borrowed from another part of your layout that is working OK.

 

I'd also ask whether this occurs with all your locos or only a subset of them. Why I ask this question is that there can be track contact problems on turnouts, especially for small locos. The frog juicers you're using depend on seeing a short which they react to by flipping the polarity - the short occurs by the wheels on the frog side of the loco bridging between two sections of rail that are of opposite polarity. This can only happen if there is good contact between the wheels and the rail. Any kind of unevenness in the track can cause problems, especially for small locos.

 

Yours,  Mike.

 

PS I assume the "buzzing" you are referring to is coming from the frog juicer(s), which I understand do make a noise as they operate.

 

[EWS60065]

24 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

I come back to my question - after a train has run over the crossover, is every section of track on that route powered and of the correct polarity? 

 

If the answer to that question is "yes", then we can eliminate any wiring problems as being the cause.

If "no" then there is some wiring to fix.

 

If "yes" then I'd next ask whether there is a problem with either or both of the frog juicers - they may be malfunctioning. I think the simplest way to check this out would be to replace them one at a time with another frog juicer borrowed from another part of your layout that is working OK.

 

I'd also ask whether this occurs with all your locos or only a subset of them. Why I ask this question is that there can be track contact problems on turnouts, especially for small locos. The frog juicers you're using depend on seeing a short which they react to by flipping the polarity - the short occurs by the wheels on the frog side of the loco bridging between two sections of rail that are of opposite polarity. This can only happen if there is good contact between the wheels and the rail. Any kind of unevenness in the track can cause problems, especially for small locos.

 

Yours,  Mike.

 

PS I assume the "buzzing" you are referring to is coming from the frog juicer(s), which I understand do make a noise as they operate.

 

I will have to do a bit of experimenting and testing and I'll get back to you with what exactly happens. You've been really helpful. 

[Yardman]

1 hour ago, GWR5764 said:

Thanks, does seem to be what I've done though 

There shouldn't be any buzzing,  slowing, etc. Are the two tracks the crossover is joining in Phase? If they are on separeate power districts, they must be connected correctly, it sounds like they are not.

[EWS60065]

1 hour ago, Yardman said:

There shouldn't be any buzzing,  slowing, etc. Are the two tracks the crossover is joining in Phase? If they are on separeate power districts, they must be connected correctly, it sounds like they are not.

Excuse my ignorance but what exactly are power districts? The two points each have their own dropper wires connected to a bus wire (the same bus wire for each point). They are isolated from each other. Sometimes it works alright but sometimes it completely stalls.

[EWS60065]

3 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

I come back to my question - after a train has run over the crossover, is every section of track on that route powered and of the correct polarity? 

 

If the answer to that question is "yes", then we can eliminate any wiring problems as being the cause.

If "no" then there is some wiring to fix.

 

If "yes" then I'd next ask whether there is a problem with either or both of the frog juicers - they may be malfunctioning. I think the simplest way to check this out would be to replace them one at a time with another frog juicer borrowed from another part of your layout that is working OK.

 

I'd also ask whether this occurs with all your locos or only a subset of them. Why I ask this question is that there can be track contact problems on turnouts, especially for small locos. The frog juicers you're using depend on seeing a short which they react to by flipping the polarity - the short occurs by the wheels on the frog side of the loco bridging between two sections of rail that are of opposite polarity. This can only happen if there is good contact between the wheels and the rail. Any kind of unevenness in the track can cause problems, especially for small locos.

 

Yours,  Mike.

 

PS I assume the "buzzing" you are referring to is coming from the frog juicer(s), which I understand do make a noise as they operate.

 

Right so I can run the loco over the crossover fine. I will then run the loco along the straight parts of the points (so going over the points but not actually using the crossover part) and that will work fine. Autofrog working noisily but correctly. It is when I then use the crossover part again after doing this that the autofrog does not come into play. The turnout does not light up the track tester, only the straight has power. With the other points whichever way I go they will ensure the power is always where it needs to be. I've tried swapping the autofrog power wires over but no change whatsoever. I'm still concerned that the track tester is showing a green light rather than orange, a green light is supposed to identify with DC operation.

 

Edit: Yes, once I've managed to run over it successfully the crossover does appear to have the correct power and polarity afterwards.

Edited April 2, 2021 by GWR5764

[melmerby]

Out of interest, what point motors are being used?

[EWS60065]

12 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Out of interest, what point motors are being used?

No point motors, points will use a manual system due to the small size and limited budget. 

[melmerby]

30 minutes ago, GWR5764 said:

No point motors, points will use a manual system due to the small size and limited budget. 

In that case personally I would have made some sort of operating lever/handle system that operated a microswitch at the same time that it moved the point blades.

Saves the cost of a juicer.

[KingEdwardII]

53 minutes ago, GWR5764 said:

The turnout does not light up the track tester, only the straight has power.

I think you need to explain this in more detail, since as it's written, it is very vague.

 

Can you be specific about which part(s) of the track don't light up the track tester - for me "turnout" means the whole thing - stock rails, switch rails, frog, the lot.

 

And I don't really know what you mean by "track tester" - is this the Gaugemaster GM52?

 

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/model-railways/gaugemaster-track-brand5/gaugemaster-gm52.html

 

That would make sense of your comments about Orange vs Green lights. And yes, if you're powering the track with a DCC signal, Orange is what you would expect to see.

 

Ideally, you should go back to your original diagram in your first post and show on that the positions of the track tester where the track tester does and does not light up - and which colour.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[RobinofLoxley]

5 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

I come back to my question - after a train has run over the crossover, is every section of track on that route powered and of the correct polarity? 

 

If the answer to that question is "yes", then we can eliminate any wiring problems as being the cause.

If "no" then there is some wiring to fix.

 

If "yes" then I'd next ask whether there is a problem with either or both of the frog juicers - they may be malfunctioning. I think the simplest way to check this out would be to replace them one at a time with another frog juicer borrowed from another part of your layout that is working OK.

 

I'd also ask whether this occurs with all your locos or only a subset of them. Why I ask this question is that there can be track contact problems on turnouts, especially for small locos. The frog juicers you're using depend on seeing a short which they react to by flipping the polarity - the short occurs by the wheels on the frog side of the loco bridging between two sections of rail that are of opposite polarity. This can only happen if there is good contact between the wheels and the rail. Any kind of unevenness in the track can cause problems, especially for small locos.

 

Yours,  Mike.

 

PS I assume the "buzzing" you are referring to is coming from the frog juicer(s), which I understand do make a noise as they operate.

 

There is also a limited possibility scenario with certain locos that pick up one side from the tender and the other side on the loco. I dont know the details.

[EWS60065]

1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

I think you need to explain this in more detail, since as it's written, it is very vague.

 

Can you be specific about which part(s) of the track don't light up the track tester - for me "turnout" means the whole thing - stock rails, switch rails, frog, the lot.

 

And I don't really know what you mean by "track tester" - is this the Gaugemaster GM52?

 

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/model-railways/gaugemaster-track-brand5/gaugemaster-gm52.html

 

That would make sense of your comments about Orange vs Green lights. And yes, if you're powering the track with a DCC signal, Orange is what you would expect to see.

 

Ideally, you should go back to your original diagram in your first post and show on that the positions of the track tester where the track tester does and does not light up - and which colour.

 

Yours,  Mike.

I'm trying to be as specific as I can but I'm afraid I do have limited knowledge of DCC and electronics. Not sure what to call the two different directions on a point - the two sets of stock rails branching out. 

Basically, I run a locomotive (several different ones all act the same way) on the top line marked A. All fine. The Train Tech track tester shows green on the toe of the point, green on A and no light on B. 

 

I switch the top points to run along B and the locomotive stops, there seems to be a short when it gets to the frog. The track tester shows identical results to before - green light on A but no light on B. The autofrog should switch it so that the loco can travel down B but it doesn't. By bridging the gap created by the insulated joiners on the crossover with something metal I can manually trigger the autofrog to change the polarity - but the locomotive moving over it will not do so.

The bottom point seems to not create any stops or shorts although it still makes significant buzzing when passing over it. 

Hope this is more clear. I'm now swinging more towards the idea of manually switching the polarity with a point rodding.

[EWS60065]

51 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

There is also a limited possibility scenario with certain locos that pick up one side from the tender and the other side on the loco. I dont know the details.

Oh right, I'm using diesels and several different ones do the same thing unfortunately.

[jpendle]

Hi,

 

So first of all you don't have a short circuit, if you did the autofrog would change the polarity of the frog, that's how they work.

 

So the problem is that you don't have a short circuit when you should!

 

When you first switch the point the frog polarity will not have changed, so A will still light up while B doesn't.

 

What's meant to happen is that when the loco wheels contact the frog a short circuit will be created, both the frog and the other running rail of the diverging route will be at the same polarity, both connected to the red power feed. The auto frog should then detect the short and automatically change the polarity of the frog to "black". This should happen so quickly that you don't notice and the loco doesn't stall.

 

You then say that if you manually connect across the insulating gap at B, presumably between the stock rail of the second point with the "black" power feed, that the autofrog works and your track tester lights up at B, and presumably does not light up at A.

 

If that is the case then it sounds like you may have modified the upper point incorrectly, and that the frog rails are NOT CONNECTED to the V rails, but your Autofrog is connected to the V rails

This would mean that a short on the V rails (like bridging the insulating gap, would trigger the autofrog, but a short on the frog itself would not.

 

One simple way to test this theory would be to run the loco along A as before, buit after changing the points, start the loco from the bottom track and run it over the points in the opposite direction. If the loco runs through the crossover without stopping then the upper point is the problem.

 

If you have a multimeter, and with the DCC power turned off, use the multimeter to test that there is continuity between the frog and the V rails of the upper point.

 

Regards,

 

John P