Wiring DCC electrofrog crossover

[melmerby]

Use this as reference:

[EWS60065]

21 minutes ago, jpendle said:

Hi,

 

So first of all you don't have a short circuit, if you did the autofrog would change the polarity of the frog, that's how they work.

 

So the problem is that you don't have a short circuit when you should!

 

When you first switch the point the frog polarity will not have changed, so A will still light up while B doesn't.

 

What's meant to happen is that when the loco wheels contact the frog a short circuit will be created, both the frog and the other running rail of the diverging route will be at the same polarity, both connected to the red power feed. The auto frog should then detect the short and automatically change the polarity of the frog to "black". This should happen so quickly that you don't notice and the loco doesn't stall.

 

You then say that if you manually connect across the insulating gap at B, presumably between the stock rail of the second point with the "black" power feed, that the autofrog works and your track tester lights up at B, and presumably does not light up at A.

 

If that is the case then it sounds like you may have modified the upper point incorrectly, and that the frog rails are NOT CONNECTED to the V rails, but your Autofrog is connected to the V rails

This would mean that a short on the V rails (like bridging the insulating gap, would trigger the autofrog, but a short on the frog itself would not.

 

One simple way to test this theory would be to run the loco along A as before, buit after changing the points, start the loco from the bottom track and run it over the points in the opposite direction. If the loco runs through the crossover without stopping then the upper point is the problem.

 

If you have a multimeter, and with the DCC power turned off, use the multimeter to test that there is continuity between the frog and the V rails of the upper point.

 

Regards,

 

John P

Cheers John, that is also very helpful. Yep, running the other way the crossover does work. I guess I'll have to take the point up and examine the underside - it could be that a wire has popped off. However, some of my other points do work (so must be set up correctly) but still make a significant buzzing and slight slow down/jolty running over them. I wonder if bad quality wiring could cause this as the actual system does seem to function as intended (just badly). Running slowly over them a lot causes the juicers to heat up. The wires are all connected underneath using screw in plastic blocks and I'm not entirely convinced by some of the connections. The wire is the standard peco stuff, would you recommend a thicker wire for the main bus as could lower power possibly cause this erratic running? 

Thanks again

[jpendle]

Hi,

 

The Gaugemaster Autofrogs use a relay, so by DCC standards they are very slow, as a backup for other types of frog switching they are probably fine, but as your only method, I would expect the behaviour that you are seeing. Your wiring won't be the issue.

 

I don't use Autofrogs or Frog Juicers on my points, but use auxiliary switches on my point motors to switch frog polarity.

 

If you want to eliminate this, then, as long as you have the cash, I would recommend using the TAM Valley series of Frog Juicers, these are solid state frog polarity switches and therefore work much faster than the Gaugemaster Autofrogs. Other solid state frog polarity switches may be available.

 

I have the six way version (Tam Valley Hex Frog Juicer) that I use for reversing loops and for switching the frogs on diamond crossings.

 

Regards,

 

john P

[jpendle]

54 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Use this as reference:

What's a gaurd rail? Some kind of fruit? 

 

John P

 

 

[melmerby]

29 minutes ago, jpendle said:

What's a gaurd rail? Some kind of fruit? 

 

John P

 

 

It doesn't really matter what they call them as long as everybody is singing from the same sheet.

[Erixtar1992]

Using a controller with a low track voltage can cause this issue, such as a powercab ect.

 

try and borrow someone elses dcc control setup to eliminate this, as you may end up chasing problems that dont exist and ripping track up for no reason.  

[EWS60065]

6 hours ago, Erixtar1992 said:

Using a controller with a low track voltage can cause this issue, such as a powercab ect.

 

try and borrow someone elses dcc control setup to eliminate this, as you may end up chasing problems that dont exist and ripping track up for no reason.  

Yes I do use a power cab. In the current situation I'm not really going to be able to borrow someone else's but a multimeter should show any issues hopefully. Is there a booster or something I can use in conjunction with the powercab?

[EWS60065]

11 hours ago, jpendle said:

Hi,

 

The Gaugemaster Autofrogs use a relay, so by DCC standards they are very slow, as a backup for other types of frog switching they are probably fine, but as your only method, I would expect the behaviour that you are seeing. Your wiring won't be the issue.

 

I don't use Autofrogs or Frog Juicers on my points, but use auxiliary switches on my point motors to switch frog polarity.

 

If you want to eliminate this, then, as long as you have the cash, I would recommend using the TAM Valley series of Frog Juicers, these are solid state frog polarity switches and therefore work much faster than the Gaugemaster Autofrogs. Other solid state frog polarity switches may be available.

 

I have the six way version (Tam Valley Hex Frog Juicer) that I use for reversing loops and for switching the frogs on diamond crossings.

 

Regards,

 

john P

Ah right, I read that autofrogs were still an option to use on points for DCC so I chose them as they seemed the simplest option, originally I just wanted simple points with no polarity switches at all! Hopefully doing it this way with all the modifications should give better running though. I'll look into those but I'm swawing towards a manual polarity switch that works in conjunction with switching the point blades, would you recommend this as a simple, reliable method?

Thank you.

[Yardman]

16 hours ago, GWR5764 said:

Excuse my ignorance but what exactly are power districts? The two points each have their own dropper wires connected to a bus wire (the same bus wire for each point). They are isolated from each other. Sometimes it works alright but sometimes it completely stalls.

I'm  assuming from this comment all your layout is connected to one booster/ command centre and the rails are connected as shown in the link I sent you. That is Red rail to Red rail and Black rail to black rail. i.e. in phase. If not the system sees it as a short through the loco pickups as it traverses from one track to the other. Check your connections.

[EWS60065]

9 minutes ago, Yardman said:

I'm  assuming from this comment all your layout is connected to one booster/ command centre and the rails are connected as shown in the link I sent you. That is Red rail to Red rail and Black rail to black rail. i.e. in phase. If not the system sees it as a short through the loco pickups as it traverses from one track to the other. Check your connections.

Yeah it isn't very big so all connected to the same place. I'm pretty sure the track is connected properly, the point does work when going through it backwards ('trailing' direction?) but the frog doesn't give power correctly when going through it towards. The fact it works when the frog has been correctly switched makes me think the track feeds are okay. The problem is that it will not switch automatically.

[meil]

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

It doesn't really matter what they call them as long as everybody is singing from the same sheet.

Oh my Gaurd - Guard Rail me thinks.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, GWR5764 said:

Ah right, I read that autofrogs were still an option to use on points for DCC so I chose them as they seemed the simplest option, originally I just wanted simple points with no polarity switches at all! Hopefully doing it this way with all the modifications should give better running though. I'll look into those but I'm swawing towards a manual polarity switch that works in conjunction with switching the point blades, would you recommend this as a simple, reliable method?

Thank you.

A method I have seen which seems to work OK for small compact layouts is to have a dowelling rod (say 12mm diameter) running under the base board where each of the points are and coming out to the front of the baseboard with a wooden knob to operate it with. The dowel would need to be supported at the far end to keep it horizontal.

A piece of hard steel wire would come from the dowel vertically through the B/B and through the hole in the point tie bar.

A microswitch for frog switching can also be operated by the same dowel.

[Erixtar1992]

9 hours ago, GWR5764 said:

Yes I do use a power cab. In the current situation I'm not really going to be able to borrow someone else's but a multimeter should show any issues hopefully. Is there a booster or something I can use in conjunction with the powercab?

ha! Bingo!

Powercab will likely be your issue then.

 

you can buy a higher voltage power supply from DCC Concepts - which SHOULD solve the problem in theory.

 

I had the same symptoms, trains were running okay in one direction but change the point and it will just short the layout & relay on the autofrog become EXTREMELY hot.

 

i tried a friends gaugemaster prodigy just out of curiosity as we suspected the powercab and bingo.

 

think the powercab is only 14-15V track power instead of the usual 16+ from memory.

 

i upgraded controller instead as i wanted to expand anyway, to a DR5000 and with the higher track voltage i also noticed much improved running with all my locos - so it may actually do you a slight favour! 

 

but yeah, i had the same as you, your layout is likely fine mate.

 

eric

 

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Erixtar1992

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Erixtar1992 said:

ha! Bingo!

Powercab will likely be your issue then.

 

you can buy a higher voltage power supply from DCC Concepts - which SHOULD solve the problem in theory.

 

I had the same symptoms, trains were running okay in one direction but change the point and it will just short the layout & relay on the autofrog become EXTREMELY hot.

 

i tried a friends gaugemaster prodigy just out of curiosity as we suspected the powercab and bingo.

 

think the powercab is only 14-15V track power instead of the usual 16+ from memory.

 

i upgraded controller instead as i wanted to expand anyway, to a DR5000 and with the higher track voltage i also noticed much improved running with all my locos - so it may actually do you a slight favour! 

 

but yeah, i had the same as you, your layout is likely fine mate.

 

eric

 

 

From discussions on another thread it was determined that the Powercab maximum safe input voltage is 15v (from the manual) and the supplied PSU is only 13.5v, giving a lowish track voltage as standard.

 

16v track power is however on the high side. The original DR5000s with a fixed voltage supply were around 17.5v which is really too high for N, 00 & H0 and some decoders might fail.

Later DR5000s have an adjustable PSU to get it down to a more reasonable figure

[Erixtar1992]

39 minutes ago, melmerby said:

From discussions on another thread it was determined that the Powercab maximum safe input voltage is 15v (from the manual) and the supplied PSU is only 13.5v, giving a lowish track voltage as standard.

 

16v track power is however on the high side. The original DR5000s with a fixed voltage supply were around 17.5v which is really too high for N, 00 & H0 and some decoders might fail.

Later DR5000s have an adjustable PSU to get it down to a more reasonable figure

Yeah mine has the adjustable power supply, i have it on 16 i think,  i only use ESU decoders though so better quality stuff perhaps. Not heard of an issue with decoders failing from it but sounds interesting! 

[EWS60065]

13 hours ago, Erixtar1992 said:

ha! Bingo!

Powercab will likely be your issue then.

 

you can buy a higher voltage power supply from DCC Concepts - which SHOULD solve the problem in theory.

 

I had the same symptoms, trains were running okay in one direction but change the point and it will just short the layout & relay on the autofrog become EXTREMELY hot.

 

i tried a friends gaugemaster prodigy just out of curiosity as we suspected the powercab and bingo.

 

think the powercab is only 14-15V track power instead of the usual 16+ from memory.

 

i upgraded controller instead as i wanted to expand anyway, to a DR5000 and with the higher track voltage i also noticed much improved running with all my locos - so it may actually do you a slight favour! 

 

but yeah, i had the same as you, your layout is likely fine mate.

 

eric

 

 

Thank you! I'll definitely have to look into a new power supply then. The controller seemed the best choice at the time compromising price and quality and I still like the controller so hopefully this will fix it.

[EWS60065]

I'm only looking to run one or two trains at a time so should I really need a booster and will it definitely be the cause of my bad running? Willing to get one if necessary but which one is best, I've had a look around and there are several?

[Yardman]

From the ongoing posts in this thread it sounds like the electronic frog switcher is not detecting the short from incorrect polarity quick enough when the turnout is reversed. I do not understand why people use electronic frog switchers when a 50p microswitch does the same job instantly. Take the frog juicers out and stick a micro switch on your point linkage or at the end of the throwbar.

[melmerby]

51 minutes ago, Yardman said:

From the ongoing posts in this thread it sounds like the electronic frog switcher is not detecting the short from incorrect polarity quick enough when the turnout is reversed. I do not understand why people use electronic frog switchers when a 50p microswitch does the same job instantly. Take the frog juicers out and stick a micro switch on your point linkage or at the end of the throwbar.

I agree that in a simple arrangement like this, frog juicers are just an extra electronic device waiting to cause trouble.

 

There are cases with complex pointwork, when they could prove useful but I have managed to do without them, relying solely on the switches in point motors to do the job, despite several complex areas of trackwork.

 

In this case I would have gone for some sort of manually operated system with a microswich to switch thefrogs

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by melmerby

[EWS60065]

As I am a beginner with DCC I just read the articles and information available and autofrogs were suggested. Now looking back I agree a micro switch seems a lot easier, could always just try one and see if it works and then do the rest. Could anyone expand on exactly how to wire one up to a point rod as said previously please?

[RFS]

10 minutes ago, GWR5764 said:

As I am a beginner with DCC I just read the articles and information available and autofrogs were suggested. Now looking back I agree a micro switch seems a lot easier, could always just try one and see if it works and then do the rest. Could anyone expand on exactly how to wire one up to a point rod as said previously please?

 

You could use one these from Ebay - lever switch - select the short lever one.  The lever rests against the tie-bar which changes it as you operate the points. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by RFS

[Free At Last]

It is usual at this point for someone to come on to say there is no need to modify points or add switching to frogs as his exhibition layout has non of this and has never given any trouble.

[jpendle]

1 hour ago, Free At Last said:

It is usual at this point for someone to come on to say there is no need to modify points or add switching to frogs as his exhibition layout has non of this and has never given any trouble.

Hello there 

 

I don't modify my points and ...............

 

I model in N Gauge and as the points are much coarser scale, the mods that are recommended for OO points aren't necessary.

 

But back to the OP.

 

If money is to be spent on anything at this stage. I would recommend buying a multimeter. Then it can be determined if the point wiring mods have been done correctly, ie no bad solder joints or missing wires. The fact that the auto frog works when triggered from the point V but not the point frog would suggest to me a point issue, rather than a DCC system issue.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Yardman]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

I agree that in a simple arrangement like this, frog juicers are just an extra electronic device waiting to cause trouble.

 

There are cases with complex pointwork, when they could prove useful but I have managed to do without them, relying solely on the switches in point motors to do the job, despite several complex areas of trackwork.

 

In this case I would have gone for some sort of manually operated system with a microswich to switch thefrogs

 

Never seen a situation where I needed a frog juicer and I've had some pretty complex pointwork over the last 50 years.

[Yardman]

2 hours ago, GWR5764 said:

As I am a beginner with DCC I just read the articles and information available and autofrogs were suggested. Now looking back I agree a micro switch seems a lot easier, could always just try one and see if it works and then do the rest. Could anyone expand on exactly how to wire one up to a point rod as said previously please?

I sent you the link previously.

http://a19modelrailwayclub.org/tonys-dcc-workshop/complex-pointwork-wiring-for-dcc/

You just need to connect your point linkage or even fasten one at the end of the peco trowbar to operate it. these are what we use.

https://www.rapidonline.com/marquardt-191-071-021-straight-lever-5-7mm-for-1050-series-micro-switches-59-4131