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Which magazine for scratchbuilders? with plans of loco's and buildings etc.


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18 hours ago, Royal42 said:

 

. . . layout will be N Gauge as I live in a small bungalow.

 

 

It'd be worth joining the 2mm Scale Association and probably, to a lesser extent as they are more RTR oriented, the N Gauge Society.

 

 

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Hi Grahame,

I have joined the 2mm Scale Association and bought some books and kits from them recently.  I haven't joined the N Gauge Society, mainly for the reason you mentioned.  I prefer to scratchbuild stuff and then just put in on display, either in a diorama or layout.

 

I am still very much at the learning and researching stage, hence my requests for info on plans and drawings etc.

 

cheers,
Mike

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20 hours ago, Royal42 said:

 

Now you tell me!  default_doh.gif  I have already sent them an email, telling them you recommended me! rofl.gif

 

 

As you have already discovered, you can't join the LMS Society (unless you have a history of being able to research apparently). But you can view the list of books/articles that members of the LMSS have written.

 

http://www.lmssociety.org.uk/bib.php

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Once it's open again this lot have extensive stocks of old magazines https://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/magazines.htm

 

If you find the issue you need from one of the sources already mentioned they will deal with phone or postal queries. Note that checking whether they have it in stock almost certainly involves one of the volunteers putting the phone down and walking next door to look, so I don't expect they're open at all at the moment. 

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12 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Once it's open again this lot have extensive stocks of old magazines https://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/magazines.htm

 

If you find the issue you need from one of the sources already mentioned they will deal with phone or postal queries. Note that checking whether they have it in stock almost certainly involves one of the volunteers putting the phone down and walking next door to look, so I don't expect they're open at all at the moment. 

How well is their inventory organised? Lots of magazines of lots of titles, does take a lot of room.

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Posted (edited)

One thread here that you might find useful is this one - I have linked to page 10 as the images in the first nine have got lost. (Edit some later ones have also seem to have vanished) Grahame models mid/late 20th century urban buildings, albeit in 2mm scale. They are based in the area around London Bridge station which is the opposite of your proposed diorama as it is up on a viaduct! Don't be put off by the weird sculpture in the embedded link, Grahame covers a wide range of style and periods.

 

Edited by phil_sutters
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The way I read it, the OP is a competent scratch-builder, so is looking not for advice about how to build stuff, but drawings of stuff, from which to build a static diorama.

 

For the scene in question, I would suggest that the buildings and structures will almost certainly have to be built from photos, but the railway structures will need to scale to appropriate dimensions for clearances, and the best place to start for that is the diagram at the end of this 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Requirements1950.pdf

 

Track is the next thing, and if the OP is content with the approximations of commercial N gauge, then Peco code-55 streamline, is as good a place to start as any.

 

Then trains, which is where things get complicated as stated by others. If I were in the same boat as the OP, I might pick a common loco for which a drawing is readily available, and have a bash at that. This blog includes a useable drawing of a midland 2P, which to me seems ideal, because it is composed of simple shapes - no difficult tapers, no outside valvegear, and there are buckets of photos on-line that will help when interpresting the drawing.

 

https://steammemories.blogspot.com/2012/12/typical-midland-engines.html

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Class_2P_4-4-0

 

Does that help?

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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Posted (edited)

Hello Nearholmer,

 

You are correct in your assumption, in that I have no problem building components;  if I can see them with dimensions.  The diagram of the 2P loco is typical of the problems I am facing though.  Everyone seems to draw these diagrams with the assumption we are just going to slot in a ready-made chassis, because that area is totally blocked from view.  As I see it, only the body can be drawn and constructed from such a plan.

 

If I can use the following, as an example to show what I need to build a model; then, if this was a vehicle or aircraft build the chassis would be included in plans, such as this.

Ywqhojv.jpg

 

There is enough detail there for me to draw up the model in CAD.

d2Pypsu.jpg

 

AjCuL5y.jpg

 

then, using the rest of the plans, I could add the body.

D4swlr6.jpg

 

87icAVI.jpg

 

With the end result that I can print a complete model, not just a body.

agjr9c5.jpg

 

e6KekLz.jpg

 

This is why I am asking for help in my research, to find plans that show a complete locomotive and not just the external views.  Perhaps someone has a plan and profile of a loco, one which would have been seen at Birmingham, that they could scan or loan me.  I cannot keep buying books just on the off chance there might be a full plan there.

 

cheers,
Mike

Edited by Royal42
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3 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

One thread here that you might find useful is this one - I have linked to page 10 as the images in the first nine have got lost. (Edit some later ones have also seem to have vanished) Grahame models mid/late 20th century urban buildings, albeit in 2mm scale. They are based in the area around London Bridge station which is the opposite of your proposed diorama as it is up on a viaduct! Don't be put off by the weird sculpture in the embedded link, Grahame covers a wide range of style and periods.

 

Thanks Phil,

there looks to be some interesting stuff there.  I will need some time to work through the threads, especially for me to get a good understanding of how to do it.

 

cheers,
Mike

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Yep, the drawings are for people who already know what a locomotive frame looks like, or at least know how a model loco frame has to be built in order to work.

 

If you don' knowt, then the LMS locomotive profile series are rare among railway books, in that they contain genuine engineering drawings. However, I strongly suggest that you get to a preserved railway, or a museum, as soon as covid permits, because without getting your head around the real thing, it can be quite hard to interpret said engineering drawings.

 

This all highlights a big philosophical difference between static and railway modellers, in that railway modellers are attempting to build things that run, and in tiny scales like N/2mm it would be rare to find anyone attempting to model the frames, bogie linkages etc accurately and in detail (a few retired watchmakers maybe), because of the compromises necessary to create something that works. Function has to triumph over form, although less so as the scale increases.

 

To get you started, try this basic intro: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive_frame

 

Most British steam locos built since railways came out of their infancy have plate frames, of the general form shown in the photo of the Gresley Pacific frame in that article, but if you want to get into the level of detail that you've achieved with that 3D printed tank lorry, I repeat my advice to get a look at the real thing first, ideally the real loco that you want to build a model of, because the entire form/structure of a steam loco is different from that of a road vehicle.

 

This is impossible to read at the resolution presented, but is the sort of drawing you need, I think 

https://www.ssplprints.com/image/1106973/midland-railway-class-4-4-4-0-drawing-no-07-7161

 

This one is a beauty, but again likely to be hard to interpret if you don't know the real thing well 

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/general-arrangement-drawing-of-a-tank-locomotive-made-by-news-photo/90747145

 

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Track is the next thing, and if the OP is content with the approximations of commercial N gauge, then Peco code-55 streamline, is as good a place to start as any.

 

 

If the aim is to build a static diorama I wouldn't suggest Peco code 55 (which is very chunky and has incorrect scale sized sleepers and spacing) but go for something finer, more accurate and better looking such as British Finescale fiNetraX for N gauge or 2mmSA Easitrac for 2mm scale. Both are kit systems using code 40 rail.

 

 

 

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Yes, now I'm beginning to understand where the OP is coming from, you are right, it has to be finer - possibly even those options might be too 'functional', although they are certainly a mile better than Peco for these purposes.

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4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

How well is their inventory organised? Lots of magazines of lots of titles, does take a lot of room.

Floor to ceiling shelves with the magazines in those triangular magazine file things, usually one year to a file in date order. You help yourself and take them to the till. Usually I go in with a list but i have been known to just browse, that's less productive though. There are preserved railway and society mags as well as mainstream ones. Model and prototype. 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, grahame said:

If the aim is to build a static diorama I wouldn't suggest Peco code 55 (which is very chunky and has incorrect scale sized sleepers and spacing) but go for something finer, more accurate and better looking such as British Finescale fiNetraX for N gauge or 2mmSA Easitrac for 2mm scale. Both are kit systems using code 40 rail.

I have joined the 2mm Association and do like the idea of using that method, the only problem is that everything is expensively new; whereas the standard tracks can be sought more economically pre-owned.  Again, here I have encountered another dilemma;  having learned about code 80, code 55 and now code 40, I see there is another player:  fiNetrax.   It is all rather mind boggling, as each has their own view on what is best, and I wonder if I shall actually get any track laid!

 

I have acquired lengths of old, used, track; of different brands and sizes, which I shall use as a temporary layout whilst I go through this learning curve.  After that, I shall probably (until told something different or new) save up and invest in code 40 'make it yourself' trackwork.  Whether my aged eyesight will be able to cope with threading rail through tiny chair things, then onto sleepers is another matter entirely.

 

Thanks for the advice and recommendations everyone,  I am enjoying learning; albeit perhaps not as fast as members here expect, and I shall continue with my online research.  I may need to bide my time on this and wait until libraries and shows start up again.   I really do need to get a grip of something more tangible in order to be able to build something.

 

cheers,
Mike

Edited by Royal42
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Nearholmer has touched on one important difference between your approach and that of the typical railway modeller: you are building static models rather than models intended to run. The drawings you refer to will give the shapes of the frames, but little inside detail because our models are full of motor and gears - though of course modern locomotives have as much of their works outside as possible anyway, so the biggest thing between the frames will be the bottom of the firebox. If you want to see the work of someone who has built inside valve gear at 2 mm scale, look for the work of Tim Watson - he is a dental technician by profession so used to working on very fine things. But even at 4 mm/ft most of us don't, partly because there is often no space and also because it is often not visible.

As has been said, you will need general arrangement drawings to get more detail, but even these will often refer to the company standard component drawings for many parts. Plenty of GA drawings are available from the railway societies but they are rarely published because the originals are large and will not print satisfactorily at normal book size. The HMRS also has many component drawings for modern rolling stock.

You mention different rail sizes. Of course they vary in the prototype too. Until relatively recently (in railway terms) 75 lb/yard was the heaviest standard weight but these days rail is much heavier, so the "correct" size will depend on what you are modelling and at what period. And then there is bullhead and flat bottomed rail (different profiles) - the latter having been standard for many years but still by no means universal.

Have fun.

Jonathan

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Posted (edited)

Yep, still having fun and my enthusiasm hasn't waned.  I suspect some compromises are in order and I think they will be:

- make the body as visually accurate as possible at 2mm scale 3D printed.

- make a chassis shell, to fit the axles and the front pistons box.

- make axle apertures in chassis shell for wheels and bogeys

- identify and add locating positions in chassis shell to fit to body.

 

As the chassis shell will be virtually hidden behind the wheels, that should do for me. I don't plan to pick the loco up to look underneath once it has been placed on track.

cheers,
Mike

Edited by Royal42
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It could be that where you are heading is rather similar to the place arrived at by static models such as this 1:100 one, but with greater finesse https://www.hattons.co.uk/300589/atlas_editions_3904034_nord_atlantic_4_4_2_locomotive_static_model_on_plinth/stockdetail.aspx

 

There was a few years ago a series of such static models issued in 2mm/ft (I think) scale, although they were pretty crude. Someone might recall who made/issued them.

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7 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Floor to ceiling shelves with the magazines in those triangular magazine file things, usually one year to a file in date order. You help yourself and take them to the till. Usually I go in with a list but i have been known to just browse, that's less productive though. There are preserved railway and society mags as well as mainstream ones. Model and prototype. 

Only way to do it. Just piles are useless and asking to be knocked over or otherwise mixed up.

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12 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

You mention different rail sizes. Of course they vary in the prototype too. Until relatively recently (in railway terms) 75 lb/yard was the heaviest standard weight but these days rail is much heavier, so the "correct" size will depend on what you are modelling and at what period. And then there is bullhead and flat bottomed rail (different profiles) - the latter having been standard for many years but still by no means universal.

 

I think you will find that most rail is/was 95lbs per yard bullhead, I have seen some 85lbs, which is visually very similar to 95lbs. Flat bottomed rail is a different kettle of fish.

 

 

Edited by Siberian Snooper
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28 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

I think you will find that most rail is/was 95lbs per yard bullhead, I have seen some 85lbs, which is visually very similar to 95lbs. Flat bottomed rail is a different kettle of fish.

 

 

Until the late 1970s or early 1980s all track at New Street was 95lb Bullhead. Flat bottom was too stiff to be jiggled on site to make it fit and still get the points to work correctly. (Got the T-shirt, several times).

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Thanks TSE, that is just the sort of info I need.  I am building up a shopping list and I was unsure whether to order bullhead or flat.  Thanks for this.

Mike

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I was thinking about what is visible behind the frames on the typical modern steam locomotive. The most significant components are the brake gear connections. They are pretty fine wire or etchings in 4 mm/ft, so in 2 mm/ft I imagine they will be too fine for digital printing, and even if you can produce them they will be so weak they won't stand any handling, such as while you paint the model. There are also some other such as brake cylinders but they are usually rather more chunky at model sizes.

BTW if you want to see what is underneath carriages and wagons there are quite a few detailed prototype photos scattered around RMWeb, usually when someone has asked about a particular prototype.

And re the comment about not using FB rail at Birmingham,. the rails through Newtown station are still bullhead even though the running lines are all FB and have been for some years. I suspect that in this case, and in other similar places, it is becaise the speeds are low through the station and there is thus less wear.

Jonathan

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