Signals a missed opportunity?

[russ p]

I'm part way through building a quite substantial amount of ratio semaphore signals and it has got me thinking surely a manufacturer could do a modular range of signals?

BR standard ones would be a good range to start with . The Dapol working ones are pretty good but a very limited range. 

I'm not sure a modular range could be made to work electrically but even a posable range would be good as there is not really anything for the general modeller

Any takers out there?

[Gordon A]

Wizard Models.

 

[russ p]

13 hours ago, Gordon A said:

Wizard Models.

 

 

Whilst they make up into fantastic models,  I have a lot of their shunting discs they are certainly not a easy modular system. 

Fine soldering is not a skill that many people possess 

[bike2steam]

Considering what it takes to make good working semaphore signals the end results are not cheap. On my last layout I used a mixture of signals, some scratchbuilt, some adapted from Ratio kits. The Ratio kits need certain working parts such as levers, and cranks replaced, plastic for brass, they were powered by Viessmann motors adapted by a small system to help slow the motor action system down. Fiddly, and time consuming, on my new layout I have gone over to the Peco servo powered 'Smartswitch', excellent system, I have a superb array of LNWR L/Q signals, once the layout is eventually up, and running I will take some pics.

[russ p]

If you make the ratio kits work how long do the actually last as they seem very fragile to me ,just using a bit of wire as pivots in plastic quadrants 

Considering how modern locos and stock have advanced over the last twenty odd years together with technology im sure its not beyond modern capabilities to make a working modular system 

[The Johnster]

The Ratio signals seem to have been originally conceived, many years ago now, to be hand operated by linkage or wire-in-tube from a miniature mechanical lever frame; I would say they are too delicate for the rather snappy point motors that were the norm in those days.  I’ve built a few in my time but find them very fiddly and faffy.  
 

I am fortunate in that the signalling requirements for Cwmdimbath can be met from the Dapol working RTP range, and use 3D printed shunting discs, albeit static. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wheatley]

I can see where you're coming from with this, something like a cross between finescale Lego and the Hornby junction signals which could be assembled a few different ways round. 

 

A robust ready-assempled arm/pivot/lamp unit which clips onto either a post or a doll, and a similar arrangement for the counter-balance arms. Different height dolls which plug into brackets or landings, which themselves plug into or clip onto posts. Base unit to contain tiny solenoids for the operating wires to connect to, they don't have to be the size of a PL10 after all.  

 

Walchaerts valve gear is quite fiddly and delicate but all the RTR manufacturers have managed it. The argument that it woukd be too generic  doesn't hold water either these days, you could float a battleship on the froth being generated by the Hattons/Hornby generic coaches. It would be expensive but what isn't these days ?

Edited April 3, 2021 by Wheatley
Sausage fingers

[bike2steam]

They are a little fragile, but if you limit the throw to within the range of the signal arm powered you'll have no problem.  A pic of one of the scratch-built 'underslung' signals on my last layout.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by bike2steam

[BernardTPM]

For a short while in the 1980s Hornby did do some adaptable signals that could be made up as varying brackets or gantry types, but they quickly simplified the range down to just a few basics again.

[russ p]

2 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

For a short while in the 1980s Hornby did do some adaptable signals that could be made up as varying brackets or gantry types, but they quickly simplified the range down to just a few basics again.

 

I remember those , I was thinking about something similar but scale ones.

If the system was based on BR standard signals a few components could make a lot of different signal configurations

[BernardTPM]

Sadly the fact that they were short lived suggests it wasn't the most successful of ideas, at least at that time.

[Wheatley]

The basic signals are still available but not the gantry extension. But then Zero 1 was short lived, didn't stop DCC taking off. 

[PatB]

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The Ratio signals seem to have been originally conceived, many years ago now, to be hand operated by linkage or wire-in-tube from a miniature mechanical lever frame; I would say they are too delicate for the rather snappy point motors that were the norm in those days.  I’ve built a few in my time but find them very fiddly and faffy.  
 

I am fortunate in that the signalling requirements for Cwmdimbath can be met from the Dapol working RTP range, and use 3D printed shunting discs, albeit static. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At one stage Ratio offered signal levers that were individually mounted in a cylindrical base that was supposed to plug into a hole in the edge of your baseboard. Linkage, IIRC, was by string. The levers were styled to look like proper signal levers, which always struck me as being a little pointless as they couldn't, as supplied, be made to resemble a proper lever frame. 

[MyRule1]

1 hour ago, PatB said:

At one stage Ratio offered signal levers that were individually mounted in a cylindrical base that was supposed to plug into a hole in the edge of your baseboard. Linkage, IIRC, was by string. The levers were styled to look like proper signal levers, which always struck me as being a little pointless as they couldn't, as supplied, be made to resemble a proper lever frame. 

They are still available on the Peco website.

 

https://peco-uk.com/products/remote-control-for-signals

 

[russ p]

Those ready assembled ratio signals seem a little bit more robust than the kits and as with the Dapol ones a very limited range

I would like a range that not only gave you an option of brackets but also subsidiary arms 

My layout doesn't have really complicated junctions but I have had to make and still in the process of building a fair few junction signals and a fair few with miniature arms

[SM42]

I think most layouts could be catered for with a single post and arm (a la Dapol ) and a left and right junction signal. Maybe a stop and distant combo one the same post.

 

An additional set of interlinking  components ( posts, cross beams and shorter posts with arms) to make larger gantries could be possible, but I suspect would be  of limited commercial value. 

 

I wonder how popular Peco Individulay was compared to ready made track.  That may give a clue to how modular signal components would sell compared to ready to plant signals 

 

Andy

[russ p]

2 hours ago, SM42 said:

I think most layouts could be catered for with a single post and arm (a la Dapol ) and a left and right junction signal. Maybe a stop and distant combo one the same post.

 

An additional set of interlinking  components ( posts, cross beams and shorter posts with arms) to make larger gantries could be possible, but I suspect would be  of limited commercial value. 

 

I wonder how popular Peco Individulay was compared to ready made track.  That may give a clue to how modular signal components would sell compared to ready to plant signals 

 

Andy

 

I see where you are coming from Andy, but the old triang Hornby gantry was always a popular accessory on layouts back in the day and I'm sure that a modular signalling system would sell more than OLE structures,  another accessory that took a long time to appear 

[SM42]

11 hours ago, russ p said:

 

I see where you are coming from Andy, but the old triang Hornby gantry was always a popular accessory on layouts back in the day and I'm sure that a modular signalling system would sell more than OLE structures,  another accessory that took a long time to appear 

 

I wonder how much of that popularity was because of how it looked (play value)  rather than the realistic signalling the modeller would desire.

 

I have never owned such an item so don't know if it was it a kit of few parts, so it fitted in the box, or came ready to plant.

 

If the former, then it could be a reasonable place to start looking  for ideas to develop  a range.

 

I quite like the idea of a plug together gantry but I still fear the manufacturer that takes that it on may be onto a loser compared to simpler signalling components.

 

Andy

[TT3]

Modular signal kits have been done but in the distant past and these have been in the archive box for ages.

 

These playcraft ones are surprisingly nicely moulded and do make into robust signals. Defiantly trainset deigned rather than scale models but come close and a quite usable. Not sure what if any prototype they are based on but proves it can be done and being modular they can be made into gantries and so on. Assembly is very easy and i am sure a modern, more refined version could be achieved. For these just ass etched signal arms to replace the plastic and bobs your proverbial. The chunkiness of the lamp mouldings would easily suit a nice LED.

 

No idea of when they were made guessing mid 60s judging by the price sticker on the box of 20 cents.

 

[russ p]

I think the triang one was more or less ready to plant but I seam to remember the posts could be reversed 

Never even heard of the play craft signal set but that is along the lines of what I'm thinking 

[e30ftw]

I wonder if a 3d printed range would be the answer, you could have BR style and the big four examples with add on moduals like shunts and distances to customise for a given layout, this could be done cheeply once the initial research and 3d modeling has been completed. You could have gantries as well with different lengths to span differnet amount of tracks etc

[Wheatley]

The Hornby one was plug n play, it extended the bracket signals with extra arms/dolls and some bits of gantry to bridge the gap:

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/420321/hornby_r089_signal_po02_signal_extension_set_pre_owned_like_new/stockdetail.aspx

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Wheatley

[Michael Hodgson]

3D printing seems to be the way to go for lattice posts, though it's outside my skill levels.

However I prefer metal posts for robustness.

[Flying Pig]

6 hours ago, Wheatley said:

The Hornby one was plug n play, it extended the bracket signals with extra arms/dolls and some bits of gantry to bridge the gap:

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/420321/hornby_r089_signal_po02_signal_extension_set_pre_owned_like_new/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

That confirms my memory that the Hornby range included separate clip on arms.  I wonder if a range of similar items, ready assembled with coloured arms and possibly even spectacles, would take much of the pain out of building signals?  The variety of posts, brackets and dolls was huge, but after the 1920s upper quadrant arms were standardised to only a few types.

[BernardTPM]

A nice aspect of the Playcraft signals was the metal base. Not only did this make them more stable they also had holes that normal trackpins would fit thorough so secure them to the fibreboard baseboards of the day.

Basically BR/LMS style signals, though probably nearer to S scale than 00* (let alone H0). Definitely 1960s as the Playcraft range was discontinued by 1970. As far as I can ascertain the signal kit was actually made by Mettoy (the parent company of Playcraft) themselves. The diecast bases have MADE IN GT. BRITAIN cast into them and the assembly format is very similar to the accessory kits in the Corgi range (see pp.12-16).

 

* that really applies to Tri-ang and Triang-Hornby signals too, though Hornby Dublo were passably to scale.

Edited April 5, 2021 by BernardTPM