Ex-Private owner wagon numbering, how was it decided?

[Possy92]

Hi all,

 

Have had a search through the existing threads, so apologise if this has already been answered.

 

As we know, when BR was born, most Private owner stock was retained by them from the war effort.

 

Obviously, they weren't all painted over night, if at all, but most did at some stage, receive a new number with the "P" prefix.

 

How did wagon works decide what number the wagons got? Most private owners, from what I've seen had their own numbering system, often adding 100 or 1000 in front to make it seem as though their 4 wagon fleet was much bigger than it actually was!

 

Was it a random number, or did 7 planks have a 7 at the start, 5 planks a 5 etc? I guess what I'm asking is was there any logic to the renumbering?

 

Thanks for your time

 

[kevinlms]

6 hours ago, Possy92 said:

Hi all,

 

Have had a search through the existing threads, so apologise if this has already been answered.

 

As we know, when BR was born, most Private owner stock was retained by them from the war effort.

 

Obviously, they weren't all painted over night, if at all, but most did at some stage, receive a new number with the "P" prefix.

 

How did wagon works decide what number the wagons got? Most private owners, from what I've seen had their own numbering system, often adding 100 or 1000 in front to make it seem as though their 4 wagon fleet was much bigger than it actually was!

 

Was it a random number, or did 7 planks have a 7 at the start, 5 planks a 5 etc? I guess what I'm asking is was there any logic to the renumbering?

 

Thanks for your time

 

While the P.O. wagons were renumbered into a common series prefixed 'P', there is a lack of information on EXACTLY how the renumbering scheme worked for ex P.O. wagons on RMweb.

 

I believe David Larkin wrote such an article in MRJ No. 151.

[Caley739]

My understanding is that each wagon repairing site was allocated a block of numbers which were applied consecutively as each wagon was repaired regardless of wagon type. You could say  there was no logical approach.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Caley739

[Wheatley]

Caley739 has it. The system is explained in volume 1 of Mr Larkin's "The Acquired Wagons of British Railways":

 

"It took until 1949 to devise a scheme and by 1957, when it was finally abandoned, quite a substantial number of wagons had still not received new numbers. This was because wagons could not be renumbered whilst loaded. New numbers commencing at P1 were issued in a totally random manner as follows:

 

P1 to P1550 - Appleby Frodingham Steel Co.

 

P1151 to P1900 - WH Arnott Young & Co"

 

... and so on. The companies listed are wagon repairers, the list goes on to include NCB and BR workshops etc. So P1 to P1550 were wagons renumbered at Appleby Frodingham after unloading, not wagons formerly owned by them. Two examples from the book - P4364 owned by Maltby Main Colliery, renumbered by Bolton Railway and Ironworks Ltd, P81313 owned by Newstead Collieries Ltd, renumbered by North West Wagon Co, Wigan.

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, Caley739 said:

My understanding is that each wagon repairing site was allocated a block of numbers which were applied consecutively as each wagon was repaired regardless of wagon type. You could say  there was no logical approach.

That's a perfectly logical approach - it's how I would have done it before we had computers.  It's how car registration plates were done by local authorities before DVLA.  It's just that there's no discernable pattern to the numbers - there's no reason why they would need one.

 

The alternative would be to have a centralised database (probably at the RCH) and get them all to submit a form asking for a number every time they had another one to put a plate on.

[Compound2632]

To what extent do records survive giving the former identity of each wagon assigned a P-number?

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

To what extent do records survive giving the former identity of each wagon assigned a P-number?

 

By no means complete - David Larkin seems to have researched what is known to a remarkable degree; (see his recent 'Acquired Wagons ..." books).

 

John Isherwood.

[The Johnster]

This means that, for modelling purposes, there is no correlation between the P numbers and the original builder or owner of the wagon, the number simply indicating the workshop it visited at the time of renumbering.  We must perforce rely on the RTR companies and the trasnfers supplied with ktis to be correct, a bit of a wobbly supposition, or photographic evidence,  Fortunately, many wagons survived to the end of their service so covered in filth as to render the matter academic.

 

The Ideal Wagons Committee presumably decided the criteria by which a wagon was either scrapped or allowed to continue in service. and the repair companies carried out their work according to this.  It was some time (I have 1953 in my head but this might not be right, and in any case is is probably that different repairers worked in different ways) before such wagons  were repainted into grey livery, as owing to the continued austerity economy and the export drive, wooden open minerals and general merchandise wagons, including new builds of wooden general merchandise opens, were turned out unpainted, fresh wood being used for plank replacements on older wagons and new wagons being completely unpainted; these could be seen in service for some considerable time aftewards, even into the 60s, very characteristic of the period but only AFAIK modelled on some 7 plank 'weathered' minerals and salt vans, and by Dapol in 7mm for general merchandise opens.

 

I have some 23 minerals on my layout, period nominally 1948-58, and of these the wooden XPOs are variously turned out, some in heavily weathered RTR liveries, some in very heavily weathered PO liveries with the number indistinguishable (photos show this to have not been uncoommon), and two in fairly clean BR unfitted grey livery.  There are also 3 Hornby LNER 8 planker 21tonners in weathered BR grey livery. 

 

John Isherwood of this parish does a sheet of mineral wagon chalked lettering suitable for the period as Cambridge Custom Transfers (no connection, satisfied customer, good to support RMWeb contributors), which includes 'Cond' and 'OJO' markings.  OJO stands for 'one journey only' and was written on wagons that were found to be in urgent need of repair but which had to be unloaded before they were repaired.  The 'one journey' was to their labelled loaded destination, at which point they were unloaded and immediately withdrawn from service for repair or (more probably) disposal.  They would then be removed from any circuit working they were part of and picked up by whatever arrangement BR had with the recipient, and taken either to a local repairer or a storage siding from which they'd eventually be sold to scrappers.

 

Near where I lived as a child, a number of sidings at Crwys Yard, on the Rhymney in the northern suburbs of Cardiff, were used for this purpose and most of the stock was still there in the mid 60s.  If only HMRS Paul had visited with his camera, or come to that I'd had the sense to take some photos...

[br2975]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

.......................................................which includes 'Cond' and 'OJO' markings.  OJO stands for 'one journey only' and was written on wagons that were found to be in urgent need of repair but which had to be unloaded before they were repaired. ................................

British Railways issued guidelines that stated  "Cond" ( i.e. condemned) or the circle with an 'X' in it, were only intended for wagons owned by the railway executive, which many former Private Owners were when the instruction was issued.

.

The same instruction stated that privately owned wagons were not to be marked "Cond" etc, but instead, marked "MTD" - "Move To Disposal".

.

In addition to "OJO" ( of which I have several images in my collection, taken at Roath Line Sidings, Cardiff ), there were any number of other codes such as

"COALEX"

"COLEX"

"COKEX"

"SUB"

"SUBEX"

"SUBEX 2"

Which referred to various management  cost cutting and fleet reducing initiatives; whereby when a wagon required attention or repairs, the cost of which exceeded a set limit ( say 10/- or maybe £5 ), the wagon could make one further loaded journey, before withdrawal and condemnation. Just how this was monitored accurately pre-TOPS, I don't know.

.

Brian R

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by br2975

[hmrspaul]

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It was some time (I have 1953 in my head but this might not be right, and in any case is is probably that different repairers worked in different ways) before such wagons  were repainted into grey livery,

David L is incorrect to suggest 1956 or 7 is when they began to repaint mineral wagons (in volume 3 of Acquired wagons... ). I have the repaint schedule for 1959 and 4 amendments issued that year and each says that they must NOT be repainted if they had wooden frames - and this was all open wagons on wooden frames, steel work could be repainted grey. Sometime earlier steel framed were to be repainted. At the end of 1959 BTC told them to stop the non repainting as the fleet looked too awful but by then most wooden minerals were on their way out. For modellers it makes for difficulties, by then these wagons hadn't been painted since the war so had a lot of replanking - unpainted - with remnants of the large Private trader lettering and sometimes some of the austerity ownership lettering - although this was usually obliterated by the black panels the numbers and tonnage were written on. 

 

As others have said Dave Larkins new series on Acquired wagons of BR is the publication of his 50 years of research into what happened to the Private Trader wagons on BR. 

 

And yes I know there are plenty of photos that show that such wagons were repainted earlier - how they got paid for I have no idea!

 

Paul

Edited April 4, 2021 by hmrspaul