Ross Natoin Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 (edited) Hi all, its Question time again!! So having completed my DJH peppercorn A2 build, paired with the subsequent arrival of my Hornby A2/2 and A2/3. I’ve started to build my crownline kit of an A2/1. it’s coming along but I’m yet to complete the chassis owing to my desire to try a new type of motor and I was wondering what recommendations are there in terms of motor/gearbox combination would be recommended for a Crownline A2/1 and A1/1? Also How do people construct their valve gear? On my peppercorn A2 it’s a bit messy as I tried soldering the rivets on on piece allowing the other to move freely via the use of a paper washer. Following advise from the Right track series. I’m trying to find the correct size of brass pin Tony Wright used in the video but no luck just yet. If anyone knows please tell me. As the riveting method I’m trying now (small pin hammer and bending other the edges) is working but seems to be very sloppy. In the meantime, I’ve started yet another DJH build of a WD 2-8-0 Austerity loco. Tender of it is completed and the body is coming along nicely too. The drive for this will be DJH’s AM10 motor and gearbox assembly. the locos are intended to be 60507 ‘Highland Cheiftan’ and 90246. future projects include a conversion of a Bachmann O4/1 into an O4/8 and building my Crownline A1/1 60113 ‘Great Northern’ into BR express passenger blue. any advice is greatly appreciated and I’ll keep you all posted on the builds. thank you, Ross. Edited April 4, 2021 by Ross Natoin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 Those locos are looking pretty good to my eye. Your title mentions Portescap but there is nothing in the text about that. In any case, I understand that Portescap (these were motor/gearbox combos) has been discontinued. They were great in their day but things move on. I suggest you check out High Level. I built some of their GBs and found them easy to put together and smooth running. https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/ John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theakerr Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 As far as motor and gearboxes are concerned I highly recommend spending the money and going with DJH. I am anxious to try High Level and have an order in place but they are in the COVID hole at the moment and cannot supply. Good communications from them and I am willing to wait. On my DJH A2 valve gear, one side is soldered and one side is riveted. I think the soldered side is better but it took me forever to find suitable pins (in Canada), most are steel covered with Brass and they do not work. I have two old Portescaps doing nothing, one the small one that doesn't whine, will hardly move a white metal tank loco and was replaced with a DJH combo and the other that will haul whines so badly that I can hear it at the far end of the house. I have tried all the suggested cures none have worked although one I keep meaning to try is to put some old valve lapping paste on the gears. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Natoin Posted April 6, 2021 Author Share Posted April 6, 2021 (edited) On 04/04/2021 at 18:22, brossard said: Those locos are looking pretty good to my eye. Your title mentions Portescap but there is nothing in the text about that. In any case, I understand that Portescap (these were motor/gearbox combos) has been discontinued. They were great in their day but things move on. I suggest you check out High Level. I built some of their GBs and found them easy to put together and smooth running. https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/ John Hi John, I shall check out high levels stuff I’ve watched a video by the loco builder on YouTube and he speaks highly of these too. I used portescap in the title as they’re what I’m thinking of going over to but really I’m open to suggestions. I tend to use DJH motors and gearboxes when constructing DJH products so as the A2/1 is a Crownline kit I thought I’d experiment a little and see what else is about. I must of forgot to put that in the main thread. My apologies. Thank you for your comments on the locos, that’s very appreciated. These are my third (A2/1) and fourth (WD) builds and I’m glad they’re not too bad. thanks for the advice, Ross. Edited April 6, 2021 by Ross Natoin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Natoin Posted April 6, 2021 Author Share Posted April 6, 2021 On 04/04/2021 at 20:22, Theakerr said: As far as motor and gearboxes are concerned I highly recommend spending the money and going with DJH. I am anxious to try High Level and have an order in place but they are in the COVID hole at the moment and cannot supply. Good communications from them and I am willing to wait. On my DJH A2 valve gear, one side is soldered and one side is riveted. I think the soldered side is better but it took me forever to find suitable pins (in Canada), most are steel covered with Brass and they do not work. I have two old Portescaps doing nothing, one the small one that doesn't whine, will hardly move a white metal tank loco and was replaced with a DJH combo and the other that will haul whines so badly that I can hear it at the far end of the house. I have tried all the suggested cures none have worked although one I keep meaning to try is to put some old valve lapping paste on the gears. Hi bud, I intend to use a DJH motor on the WD as that’s a DJH product and I know one of their motors will fit it. As for the A2/1 I wanted to experiment a little as it’s a Crownline kit and just wondered what’s about on the market and what people thought of certain products. have you got a link to the pins you’ve used on your A2? On my Peppercorn A2 i soldered to the rivet and it’s not a pretty picture if I’m honest. So I’m looking out for a better solution. regards, Ross. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theakerr Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Still trying to track down my source. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted April 25, 2021 Share Posted April 25, 2021 I usually use Alan Gibson rivets on any 4mm scale valve gear I make these days. The trick is to tighten everything carefully, and if you accidentally overtighten, drill the rivet out and try again. Mark 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium D.Platt Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2021 I don’t know if your still looking for these pins, These were from Eileen’s Stall , make sure they are brass lace pins, a good haberdashery shop should also have them, mine are about an inch long. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted May 26, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2021 14 hours ago, D.Platt said: I don’t know if your still looking for these pins, These were from Eileen’s Stall , make sure they are brass lace pins, a good haberdashery shop should also have them, mine are about an inch long. 26mm long in fact! Which of course is exactly the same length as most 4mm scale coach/wagon axles. But these are useless for that as far too thin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium D.Platt Posted May 26, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2021 Sorry I’am a 1mm out, but this is for valve gear rivets not axles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted June 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 10, 2021 For the valve gear, the fine brass "lace" pins I use come from the model ship building websites, 7mm or 10mm length. I think even Amazon sell them and they are definitely on Ebay. I also like the gold plated pins which DCC Concepts use with their point rodding kit. Perfect for the job. The paper washer method as used by Mr Wright on his video is exactly how I do it. I prefer High Level Gearboxes and their new Coreless motors are very good as well. I see used Portescap motors fetch upwards of £60 on Ebay now. I am looking at trying the DJH motor/Gearbox combo as recommended and used by Mr Wright in all his kit builds. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmedune Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 On 10/06/2021 at 14:25, ianLMS said: and their new Coreless motors are very good as well Doesn't DCC have an issue with Coreless motors? Or is that just the cheap brands? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted June 21, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 21, 2021 7 hours ago, Esmedune said: Doesn't DCC have an issue with Coreless motors? Or is that just the cheap brands? I think it depends on what decoders you use. I use Zimo and they dont have any problems with the coreless motors. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Natoin Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 On 10/06/2021 at 14:25, ianLMS said: For the valve gear, the fine brass "lace" pins I use come from the model ship building websites, 7mm or 10mm length. I think even Amazon sell them and they are definitely on Ebay. I also like the gold plated pins which DCC Concepts use with their point rodding kit. Perfect for the job. The paper washer method as used by Mr Wright on his video is exactly how I do it. I prefer High Level Gearboxes and their new Coreless motors are very good as well. I see used Portescap motors fetch upwards of £60 on Ebay now. I am looking at trying the DJH motor/Gearbox combo as recommended and used by Mr Wright in all his kit builds. Hi, Thanks for that. I’ll look into high level gearboxes I’ve heard loads of good things about them. Ross Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted June 30, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Ross Natoin said: Hi, Thanks for that. I’ll look into high level gearboxes I’ve heard loads of good things about them. Ross They are very nice gearboxes and i have a list ready for when they re-open for business!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 On 10/06/2021 at 14:25, ianLMS said: I prefer High Level Gearboxes and their new Coreless motors are very good as well. I see used Portescap motors fetch upwards of £60 on Ebay now. I am looking at trying the DJH motor/Gearbox combo as recommended and used by Mr Wright in all his kit builds. I have a couple of these to try, both slightly earlier examples. The one drawback being the gearbox size, which is similar to the Portescap size. Fine for locos with lots of space to fit them. But things are moving on, certainly in the temporary absence of High Level, Comet, Branchlines and the more modern Markit versions are worth looking at, especially where space is at a premium Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 On 21/06/2021 at 00:02, Esmedune said: Doesn't DCC have an issue with Coreless motors? Or is that just the cheap brands? I don't think its DCC that has an issue, rather the quality of the units. High Level sell a good quality coreless motor, but I have had issues with cheaper models quickly failing on DC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted July 1, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2021 "Coreless Motors" https://dccwiki.com/Coreless_Motor Quote " coreless motors should not be used on a DCC system without a multifunction decoder installed. They will overheat when operated in zero stretching modes. This is due in part to their low impedance, which makes them look almost like a short circuit. This will allow a lot of current to flow during zero stretching. The excessive current flow will result very quickly in the destruction of the motor,." 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 Coreless Motors are far more likely to be at risk from DC operation, especially 1219s , with the use of feedback controllers and unsmoothed DC, Compspeed even did a controller to cope with them. Best of all was the Pentroller. Most if not all DCC decoders are eminently suitable, certainly I found that TCS ones are. El Cheapo ones may be questionable of course. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 13 minutes ago, ianLMS said: "Coreless Motors" https://dccwiki.com/Coreless_Motor Quote " coreless motors should not be used on a DCC system without a multifunction decoder installed. They will overheat when operated in zero stretching modes. This is due in part to their low impedance, which makes them look almost like a short circuit. This will allow a lot of current to flow during zero stretching. The excessive current flow will result very quickly in the destruction of the motor,." I think that this relates more to trying to run them under setting 0 on a DCC system without a decoder. Definitely won't last long. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 Just my own experience - I've bought some different types of Branchlines gearboxes recently for several projects and they make up and work very well imho. As it happens one is one of their multiboxes, which give different options for fitting, for an A2/1 (Nucast kit ). It fits in the already built chassis frames ok. I also bought a Mashima 14/28 to go with it. I'll see how this works in the fullness of time... I've found Branchlines to be very helpful, quite happy to give good advice on the phone, and they have a large range of gearboxes apart from other components. No connection, just found them very useful over the years. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted July 1, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2021 (edited) Not tried Branchlines but will give them a go as well. I tried one of these motors and it works well with my Zimo MX623 decoder. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7mm-x-16mm-Coreless-Micro-Motor-12V-with-DOUBLE-SHAFT-for-model-trains-/283239710105?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0 Ian Edited July 1, 2021 by ianLMS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 8 hours ago, ianLMS said: "Coreless Motors" https://dccwiki.com/Coreless_Motor Quote " coreless motors should not be used on a DCC system without a multifunction decoder installed. They will overheat when operated in zero stretching modes. This is due in part to their low impedance, which makes them look almost like a short circuit. This will allow a lot of current to flow during zero stretching. The excessive current flow will result very quickly in the destruction of the motor,." Which only goes to prove you can't believe everything you read on the internet Cored and coreless motors have similar impedances for similar voltage ratings. The big difference is the much smaller inertia (flywheel) of coreless motors. As soon as you cut the power they slow down and the emf is immediately lowered. When the power is restored the current increases dramatically and that's the source of the heating effect. There are two ways to solve this with PWM. One is to increase the frequency so that the motor does not have so much time to slow down between pulses. That's what DCC decoders do. The other way is to put a flywheel on the motor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmedune Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 12 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said: Coreless Motors are far more likely to be at risk from DC operation, especially 1219s , with the use of feedback controllers and unsmoothed DC, Compspeed even did a controller to cope with them. Best of all was the Pentroller. Most if not all DCC decoders are eminently suitable, certainly I found that TCS ones are. El Cheapo ones may be questionable of course. Yeah, LaisDCC don't recommend coreless with their decoders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 4 hours ago, AndyID said: Which only goes to prove you can't believe everything you read on the internet Cored and coreless motors have similar impedances for similar voltage ratings. The big difference is the much smaller inertia (flywheel) of coreless motors. As soon as you cut the power they slow down and the emf is immediately lowered. When the power is restored the current increases dramatically and that's the source of the heating effect. There are two ways to solve this with PWM. One is to increase the frequency so that the motor does not have so much time to slow down between pulses. That's what DCC decoders do. The other way is to put a flywheel on the motor. Hi, The heating effect is due to the lower inductance of the coreless motor, increasing the frequency of the PWM results in the current through the motor being lowered. Not all DCC decoders have the option for a higher frequency and putting a flywheel on the motor has little effect on coreless motor heating. Regards Nick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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