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All very interesting! Plenty for me to read up on.

 

I will have a larger station that is single line passing through with plenty of sidings and a turntable and so on. No terminus. I hope to fit a smaller station (small stop, sheep pen) and a brewery if space permits it. 

 

It will be strictly 1942-1945. Dad's Army, spitfires, etc. Paper crosses on the windows, no lights (I'll fit some but want to run without as well). War time feel. I've searched the internet for shop fronts that will fit into the timeline.

 

Question - the RTR LMS locos, would some fit LNER with a bit of adaptations? I don't need any fancy long express engines. They wouldn't work properly on gradients and curves.

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If by 'fit' you mean can LMS locos run on LNER tracks or vice versa, then only in specific instances where through working was agreed or there were running powers before Nationalisation.  Apart from this, if a train ran onto another company's tracks it would only be as far as the next point at which it could be exchanged for a loco from the second company.  The stock of course runs through to the destination.  So, a Liverpool Lime St-Hull working via Standege would be hauled as far as Leeds by an LMS loco but an LNER one would be attached at Leeds.  It would be formed of LMS stock which would work through to Hull or by LNER stock that had previously worked to Liverpool and was working home, but not a mix of both.

 

If you mean can you alter the appearance of LMS locos to represent LNER locos or vice versa, then no, but there is an exception in the form of LMS Stanier 8F 2-8-0s that were built for the Ministry of Supply and supplied to the LNER as their class 06.  A single line through station does sound more LNER than LMS, as I can't think of many single LMS lines in Yorkshire that were not relatively small branches.  LNER lines suitable include the current North Yorkshire Moors Railway and the Scarborough-Whitby-Middlesborough coastal route.  Traffic in the more industrial areas served (not exclusively) by the LMS in the county usually demanded double track routes. 

 

But you are considerably better catered for in terms of RTR loco and stock for the LMS lines than for LNER lines other than the ECML or the double track routes to Leeds from Doncaster and Hull from York, or Leeds.  Rule 1 must be the primary consideration, but an LNER layout with LMS locos and stock would be pushing the Rule 1 envelope too far for me; it just wouldn't make sense.

 

Does it absolutely have to be Yorkshire, or would a generally North of England scenario suffice.  I ask because the Bishop Aukland-Kirkby Stephen route in Co. Durham and Westmorland is very much the sort of scene you suggest, single track and with heavy wartime Army traffic for Catterick interesting to operate.  I can't really think of a single line LMS route in the area that ticks your boxes as well as this one does. 

 

An LMS alternative might be found in the Derbyshire Peak District, which also ticks some of your boxes, but if we are keeping to the areas that feature in the Herriot books, then we are firmly in LNER country and for a secondary single line passing station there simply isn't much RTR I'm afraid.  Herriot was a vet in Thirsk on the ECML but based the books in the surrounding countryside.

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I think basically your choice has to be ex Midland railway LMS.   There are or have been suitable 1940s era 1F  0-6-0Ts  the LMS 3F 0-6-0T "Jinty"  the 1P  0-4-4T, the 2P 4-4-0, 3F and 4F 0-6-0s which should look right on 6 coach trains or less.   6 was the limit for the 2P on 1 in 50 gradients over the Mendips for instance.  Black 5s and 8Fs would also be suitable if the traffic was heavy enough but the  4P Compounds had a heavy axle load and not branch line locos. 

The LMS built Midland designs well into the 1930s,many were brand new but wangled as "Rebuilds" for acountancy reasons.  Black 5s and 8Fs were built from the mid 30s.

The LNER didn't really build any new small locos until around 1944, A flood of B1s wiped away all the GC 4-6-0s and 4-4-2s by 1951, and the L1s and K1s also proliferated from WW2 to the early 1950s.   The only suitable WW2 LNER RTR is probably the N2, J39 and D49. Possibly 04s and Q6s if the trains are long enough.   The  J15s, B12/3  N7s and B17s were down south O1s, B1s, K1s and L1s are too modern, V2, P2, W1, A1/2/3/4 too big and heavy.   The LNER operated secondaty lines with pre 1923 classes until they came under Government control (1939?) and started building new from around 1944, even then pre 1923 designs survived until the end of LNER area steam.   I am afraid you are looking at scratch or kit building.  On the other hand ex NER 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s are nice simple beasts to scratch build and should fit RTR chassis, and the 4-4-2s impressive if slppery footed beasts.

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1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

... The only suitable WW2 LNER RTR is probably the N2, J39 and D49...  The LNER operated secondaty lines with pre 1923 classes until they came under Government control (1939?) and started building new from around 1944, even then pre 1923 designs survived until the end of LNER area steam.  I am afraid you are looking at scratch or kit building .. 


In no way am I going to suggest that these are representative of normal conditions in Yorkshire. I am mentioning them only because:

 

- they are small, pre-grouping LNER locomotives

- they are available RTR in OO scale

- they almost fit in the OP’s timescale

 

Malton had two J36s for a few months in 1940.

Edited by pH
Grammar
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On 05/04/2021 at 15:13, The Johnster said:

Hang on a sec, the Herriot books are set in the Yorkshire Dales, about 30 miles from the eastern edge of the Moors and very much Settle & Carlisle Midland Railway territory, though the GN turned up at Keighley and there was through traffic from the L & Y at Skipton  Pretty much anything you might need to model the locos and stock that this route featured from about 1930 to the present time and a good bit from before that as well is availble RTR in 4mm scale.  
 

It’s a well trodden path and there are plenty of good layouts to inspire you. 
 

I forgot to mention the Great Central, another LNER constituent, which is a major player in South Yorkshire. 

As far as I remember Herriots practice was / is in Thirsk  100%  NER / LNER turf

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4 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Yes, but the books and tv series are not set in Thirsk, but in the hill country to the west, which is more like Midland country.

 

I agree in general Johnster but from Thirsk all the way up the dale way was NER to Hawes Junction

 

 

North_Eastern_Railway_map_(centre).jpg

Edited by steved99
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18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

 A single line through station does sound more LNER than LMS, as I can't think of many single LMS lines in Yorkshire that were not relatively small branches.  LNER lines suitable include the current North Yorkshire Moors Railway and the Scarborough-Whitby-Middlesborough coastal route.  Traffic in the more industrial areas served (not exclusively) by the LMS in the county usually demanded double track routes. 

 

But you are considerably better catered for in terms of RTR loco and stock for the LMS lines than for LNER lines other than the ECML or the double track routes to Leeds from Doncaster and Hull from York, or Leeds.  Rule 1 must be the primary consideration, but an LNER layout with LMS locos and stock would be pushing the Rule 1 envelope too far for me; it just wouldn't make sense.

 

Does it absolutely have to be Yorkshire, or would a generally North of England scenario suffice.  I ask because the Bishop Aukland-Kirkby Stephen route in Co. Durham and Westmorland is very much the sort of scene you suggest, single track and with heavy wartime Army traffic for Catterick interesting to operate.  I can't really think of a single line LMS route in the area that ticks your boxes as well as this one does. 

 

 

We've commented in detail on the Stainmore Route  already. But it is worth mentioning that it carried heavy iron ore traffic (in the NER wooden hoppers Slaters do as a wagon kit) during wartime. However as already poiinted out , there's no way anything as big as an 8F 2-8-0  (or an ex NER Q6 0-8-0) would have been permitted on the Stainmore Route because of the shaky viaducts, no matter how convenient it would have been to the operators in wartime if they had been allowed 

 

In wartime one company's locos were occasionally "borrowed" elsewhere in Britain. During WW2 a small number of LNER J25s were loaned to the GWR in the West Country. So it's not impossible that LMS locos might have been used more extensively than normal on an LNER line of this kind (Realistically you are talking about ex MR 2F and 3F 0-6-0s and possibly 2P 4-4-0s being loaned to cover a big surge in traffic on something like the Stainmore Route, and those are available RTR ). Those might be supplemented by J25 and G5 from the "home team" when they are released  (The fact that most LNER RTR isn't suitable for the ex NER lines has been a long-standing grumble in some quarters)

 

And troop trains in wartime could come from anywhere and therefore be composed of almost anything

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

However as already poiinted out , there's no way anything as big as an 8F 2-8-0  (or an ex NER Q6 0-8-0) would have been permitted on the Stainmore Route because of the shaky viaducts, no matter how convenient it would have been to the operators in wartime if they had been allowed 

 No Q6s but, interestingly, Q5s were allowed over the Stainmore line before WW1: http://www.stainmore150.co.uk/stainmore_story/worsdells.html

 

They were then banned over the Belah viaduct, but a couple worked on the west end of the line for some time afterwards.

 

 Before the OP’s period, though.

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Such a wealth of information! Thank you all.

 

I wish to point out that I'm planning an N-gauge layout, so RTR for N might be more limited.

 

As for Yorkshire... did you know it's old viking land? I'm reclaiming my property!:P

 

I think that if I choose carefully, I can make something work. I'll look through the list of possibilities, and figure out what scene would be possible and make sense.

 

I know the war office (I think that's what it was called) had their own trains, and that could be used as an excuse for some locos, but I'd rather go with what might be found in the area, rather than rely on the war effort.

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10 hours ago, Reptilian Feline said:

Such a wealth of information! Thank you all.

 

I wish to point out that I'm planning an N-gauge layout, so RTR for N might be more limited.

 

As for Yorkshire... did you know it's old viking land? I'm reclaiming my property!:P

 

I think that if I choose carefully, I can make something work. I'll look through the list of possibilities, and figure out what scene would be possible and make sense.

 

I know the war office (I think that's what it was called) had their own trains, and that could be used as an excuse for some locos, but I'd rather go with what might be found in the area, rather than rely on the war effort.

 

Yorks earlier name was Yorvik.

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2 hours ago, steved99 said:

 

Yorks earlier name was Yorvik.

Or Jorvik - but before that was named Eboracum...

 

Taxi!!

 

Mark

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In N Gauge you'll probably struggle for much relevant LNER wise.

 

 

From Graham Farish

 

LNER J39 0-6-0

8F (LNER O6) 2-8-0 (LNER version) One available currently.

WD 2-8-0 (One currently in LNER livery)

 

LMS 3F 0-6-0T

LMS 4F 0-6-0

LMS 8F 2-8-0

LMS Black Five 4-6-0

LMS Fairburn 4P 2-6-4T

 

Possibly others, but I'm not very up to date on N Gauge.

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21 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Or Jorvik - but before that was named Eboracum...

 

Horse!!!

 

Mark

corrected for you..

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Union Mills, N gauge.

LMS

2F, 

3F,

2P,

 

LNER

J11,

J25,

J39

Edited by TheQ
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On 07/04/2021 at 01:56, The Johnster said:

If by 'fit' you mean can LMS locos run on LNER tracks or vice versa, then only in specific instances where through working was agreed or there were running powers before Nationalisation.    

 

I've always thought the southern approaches to York would be very modellable for LNER and LMS interests

 

https://davidheyscollection-static.myshopblocks.com/images/cm/7105ebf7baf1a56ca01b516e2921af07.jpg

 

https://davidheyscollection.myshopblocks.com/pages/david-heys-steam-diesel-photo-collection-06-railway-centre-york

 

 

 

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I'm biased and would have to vote LMS. I started off modelling the North West (West Coast / S&C) but gradually crept East so now have a Sheffield suburban set with Compounds and 2-6-4t's.  I have a few LNER wagons to add variety!

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One thing I'm thinking about is the type of shunter I can use. When I read about it, I found that small early diesel locos were used to replace the horses. LNER had very few, but the Z6 is a nice little thing. The question is, is there some way I can make one based on a donor chassi?

 

The LNER J26 looks like a possible engine for my layout. It seems to fit, historically. Looks short enough for some tighter curves too, but I need to read up on some reviews for that first.

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Nothing wrong with modelling LMS in the West Riding, which was the bit of Yorkshire where the LMS was present. But the original question was about a branch line in James Herriot country, which is the North Riding, which means NER/LNER NE Area or BR(NE).   Someone earlier mentioned troop trains to Catterick: they traversed the Richmond branch, so there is a prototype for running large LNER engines on a branch line.  In N gauge Union Mills have done quite a few of the J2x NER 0-6-0 tender locos rtr that would suit a branch goods and local passenger train.  UM also did an ex-NER D20 4-4-0 which would be spot on.  If you don’t mind some basic kit-building Langley do kits for an LNER Sentinel rail car which were common sights on the Yorkshire branches, and an NER clerestory auto coach which can also serve as a “normal” loco-hauled vehicle.  Not all the Union Mills models will be in production at the same time, but he does do periodic reruns, and there’s always eBay...

 

The big gap, as others have said, is a large tank loco. There is a V1/V3 body on Shapeways to fit a modified Farish N 2-6-0 chassis, and Worsley Works do brass scratch aids for the V1/V3 and H1/A8, but that’s getting more advanced. For some unknown reason Langley do an N body kit for the ex-GCR L1 2-6-4T which had a very limited sphere of operation, instead of doing the very similar ex-GCR A5 4-6-2T, which would have fitted the same Farish chassis (inside cylinders and motion, so very simple), and of which 25 were built by Hawthorn’s in 1925 specifically for Yorkshire &  Co Durham secondary lines.  (The original GCR batches variously worked out of Marylebone, Bradford for a bit, Kings Cross, the ex-Met lines and, after the war, in East Anglia and Bradford again for a while.  An obvious candidate for an rtr model with a wide range I would have thought!). Langley also do an N2, but that was another West Riding type apart from one solo example allocated to Carlisle which occasionally worked to Hexham (and *might* have gone down the Alston branch.)

 

RT

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After coming across a LNER forum thread from 2008, it seems that LMS lent some engines to LNER during WW2, and they were only renumbered, not relivered (sp?), so still had LMS on the side. I could make a military train with an LMS engine and it would still be OK for the area... at least that's what the post I read sounded like.

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17 minutes ago, Reptilian Feline said:

One thing I'm thinking about is the type of shunter I can use. When I read about it, I found that small early diesel locos were used to replace the horses. LNER had very few, but the Z6 is a nice little thing. The question is, is there some way I can make one based on a donor chassi?

The best option for shunting would be one of the LNER Sentinel shunters (which look like diesels but are in fact steam) of which several worked on various North Riding branches.  P&D Marsh make/made a body kit to fit on a Farish motor bogie.  See an example here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/P-D-Marsh-N-Gauge-N-Scale-A151-Sentinel-Shunter-loco-kit-requires-painting/370140493134?hash=item562e17b54e:g:RmcAAOxy4YdTXTid

 

Another obvious gap in N rtr - couldn’t be a simpler body, and you can technically sell it in all four group colours and BR.

 

RT

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17 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Nothing wrong with modelling LMS in the West Riding, which was the bit of Yorkshire where the LMS was present. But the original question was about a branch line in James Herriot country, which is the North Riding, which means NER/LNER NE Area or BR(NE).  

 

RT

 

Wasn't actually.

 

Read the OP. It says based on the Settle and Carlisle but inspired by the All Creatures Great and Small TV series.

 

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