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DCC newbie problems. (Outdoor oo layout, wifi app controlled controller)


benzino
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Hey everyone. I returned to the hobby last year, building an outdoor oo loop due to lack of indoor space and my enjoymejt of running full length trains.. (so far single loop with a 3 road fiddle yard, yet to add a couple of sidings) The track is all peco code 100, soldered links between track sections, and feed wires to each rail running all around with 'droppers'. The points are all modifed with feeds to the point blades for outdoor use. It runs fine on DC. Obviously, although level as possible, its not perfect due to being outside and on roofing felt covered decking boards. 

This year I thought Id give DCC  a go. I aquired an arduino based controller to use through phone app 'locomotive wifi 3' app as lazing in the garden controlling trains via phone or tablet seemed fun. So far ive fitted zimo mx638 decoders to 3 Bachmann class 37's.

Problems are constant stalling at random places, not just the 3 points the locos cross. sometimes they'll stop, take off in reverse, then resume. sometimes they'll speed up randomly. 

Track is clean despite being outside. I tried the locos after much track  cleaning with peco rubber and alchohol as well as wheels and pick ups. The lights remain on when the locos stall.

Tried some cv settings such as disabling dc control.

Phone is close to the wifi controller so no signal problems.

Power to track is through a clean 2 pin plug, the sort for mowers etc.

 

At this point I feel like just keeping DC, perhaps playing around with dcc with another controller at a later date. Perhaps these controllers that use a phone or tablet app are just not that great? Perhaps its the slight undulations and unlevel track that cant be helped with running outdoors? maybe its loco/ decoder combo? Any help would be appreciated, thanks

outdoor train.jpg

Edited by benzino
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What track voltage are you using and what gauge of wire are you using for a track bus?

 

I would be upping the track voltage to 16-18v and using 2.5mm2 wire as the track bus.

 

Can you borrow a command station e.g. Z21 or similar and try it to see if the issues are cured? DCC outdoors in not unusual, rare but not unknown, but people that I have come across use commercial controllers that generally provide better control characteristics - you have an excellent decoder but it does rely on getting a very good signal and DCC is a signal unlike DC.

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Thanks for the reply. The controller puts out 15v. I used 24/0.2 wire, which was sufficient for beefing up the DC circuit for outdoor, but perhaps not enough for DCC?

 

 

Edited by benzino
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30 minutes ago, benzino said:

I used 24/0.2 wire

That's equivalent to 0.75mm2 wire. How long are your cable runs? I envisage that they are fairly substantial - i.e. many metres.

 

I'd say that 0.75mm2 wire is a bit on the light side for long runs of wire - above, Iain mentioned 2.5mm2 wire for the power bus and that is what I've used on my moderate sized indoor layout. Even on my accessory bus I use 1.0mm2 wire and the power loading on that is much lower. The concern here is what happens when the voltage reaching the loco drops, which is what is behind Iain's suggestion of an upward tweak to the voltage coming out of your controller, if possible.

 

Yours, Mike.

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44 minutes ago, benzino said:

Thanks for the reply. The controller puts out 15v. I used 24/0.2 wire, which was sufficient for beefing up the DC circuit for outdoor, but perhaps not enough for DCC?

 

 

How are you measuring this?

 

A conventional multimeter doesnt give an accurate DCC voltage reading as the meters are designed for mains frequency and not DCC frequencies. You either need to be able to read the voltage from within the command station using (supplied) software or use a meter specifically manufactured to read DCC Voltages and currents (which are not cheap :( )

 

 

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I did measure with a multimeter, however the controller physically cant put out more than 15v. I accept the wire gauge is smaller than seems ideal, but I'm suprised it would make dcc running this bad. I think I'll come back to dcc on my planned small indoor layout with a more conventional dcc controller (an actual model railway rather than a big 'testtrack') and keep this outdoor setup dc with the old guagemaster for now so I can just run trains around now the weathers getting better. Thanks very much for your help though.

Edited by benzino
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Thats right, it reads 15v at the track but as you say, the meter probably isnt accurate. It seems the app operated controller may be more suited to small layouts then... and I'd need to buy something more substantial

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Nothing wrong with app operated command stations. The Z21 XL command station is app, handset or computer operated and is designed specifically for larger scale garden railways, but will operate 00/h0 just as easily, though  standard z21 or Z21 will work just as effectively for what you are doing.

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  • RMweb Gold

I have the same controller and using the recommended 15v DC 2amp power supply.

The output from power supply I'm using is 14.88V DC.

When measured at the track with a volt meter set to AC i'm getting a reading of slightly over 16v AC

I've not had the issues you are having but then again I'm running on a small N-gauge Layout but even the BUS wires I'm using on this are 1.0mm²

 

Speak to Bill who makes the controller and writes the APP, he's always available to help if required.

 

EDIT:- Just seen Bill has replied!

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Having thought some more about this and the locos speeding up or losing control. This may be due to loss of dcc signal if DC conversion is turned on at the decoder will result in this type of behaviour, similar like when a layout short occurs that the same thing occurs especially if using a booster. Turn off dc conversion as an experiment. 

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  • RMweb Gold
58 minutes ago, benzino said:

I did disable DC in the decoder, but still the same. Have messsged Bill, thanks for the replies everyone.

Please tell us what the problem is when you find it. Thanks.

 

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