Signalling used on a line used by both SNCF and DB?

[TravisM]

I’m thinking of doing a simple SNCF layout in a fictional area between Sarreguemines, Forbach and Saarbruken in the late 60’s, early 70’s, so I can run both SNCF and DB steam loco’s.  
 

As it’s used by both railways, who’s signalling would have been used or would have been one railway’s system up to the border where it changed over to the other system? Would it be possible to be at a station with SNCF at one end and DB at the other?

 

As it will be a single line with DB Class 23 2-6-2’s on a local passenger service and DB 2-10-0’s and SNCF 141R’s on freights.  I’m not sure what other SNCF steam loco’s would have been used.

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

If it's fictional, surely the choice of signalling is arbitrary?

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If it's fictional, surely the choice of signalling is arbitrary?

True but if I use German signalling, it's a DB layout but on the upside, German signalling is easier to source.

[Allegheny1600]

I am only guessing here but if your layout is set in the Alsace (France), you may get away with using German signals in France, this part of present day France having been part of Germany when the railways were being built.

 The major problem with representing both countries is that they run on different sides/hands so that would have to be overlooked!

Otherwise, I think, the signalling systems changed quite rigidly at their respective borders but I don’t know for certain, no doubt someone will come along now and cite the exception to the rule.

Cheers and just enjoy running your trains.

John

[TravisM]

8 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

I am only guessing here but if your layout is set in the Alsace (France), you may get away with using German signals in France, this part of present day France having been part of Germany when the railways were being built.

 The major problem with representing both countries is that they run on different sides/hands so that would have to be overlooked!

Otherwise, I think, the signalling systems changed quite rigidly at their respective borders but I don’t know for certain, no doubt someone will come along now and cite the exception to the rule.

Cheers and just enjoy running your trains.

John

As it’s a single line, side shouldn’t matter and I think I’ll set in the Alsace region, use German semaphore signals as they seem to be the easiest to find and use.

[Fat Controller]

A large section of the Region d'Est of SNCF is right-hand running, as per Germany. At various points, there are flyovers where left-hand running becomes right-hand running.

[St. Simon]

On 08/04/2021 at 12:39, Allegheny1600 said:

The major problem with representing both countries is that they run on different sides/hands so that would have to be overlooked!

Otherwise, I think, the signalling systems changed quite rigidly at their respective borders but I don’t know for certain, no doubt someone will come along now and cite the exception 

John

Hi,

 

I’m no expert on continental signalling, but from Cab Videos of trains between Switzerland and Germany, the signalling regulations change fairly rigidly at the border, but the change in the physical signals can be different places depending on the braking distance etc (or any other factors that determine signal spacing) from the last signal in the ‘exit’ country.

 

Of course, the boundary maybe different if it’s in a complex area (as boundaries are preferred on plain line railways in the middle of nowhere).

Of course, you could just say it’s ETCS Level 2 without Signals and then you wouldn’t have the problem (plus no expensive signals to buy!) 

 

Simon

 

[Gordonwis]

Such a model would be only marginally 'fictional', as the Saarguemines - Saarbrücken line was used by DB 023s and SNCF 141Rs. The line was DB so the signalling was German.

 

There are examples of just about every variation on this theme.  

 

The normal arrangement for border area lines is that the line will be owned by one administration and operated in the majority by the stock of that administration, with 'running rights' sometimes given to traction from another administration. So in the example above, Saarguemines - Saarbrücken was DB with German infrastructure, but occasional SNCF 141R traction.

 

For comparison, other European situations include:

 

Various 'corridor' lines where borders changed due to conflict and associated politics: in most cases these are lines that are 'enclaves' of one country's railways in another - eg in south eastern Germany with German lines through Czechia and Poland (whole area was Germany when the lines were built, similar situation on Austria - Hungary border (lines built when both countries were part of the Habsburg empire.

 

Forbach - Saarbrücken: German territory, German infrastructure, mainly French traction

 

Simplon Tunnel south portal - Domodossola: Italian territory, Swiss infrastructure (but Italian station buildings) and traction, no incursion of Italian stock (Wrong overhead voltage)

 

La Tour de Carol - Puigcerda: mainly Spanish territory, twin single tracks, one SNCF standard gauge, one RENFE broad gauge. French line moribund for many decades now.

 

Modane - Mont Cenis tunnel north portal: French territory, Italian infrastructure and traction

 

Until re-electrification a few years ago; (France) - La Plaine - Genève: Swiss territory, Swiss signalling, mainly SNCF stock but with specialised Swiss stock used on cross-border locals 

 

Annemasse - Genève Eaux Vives: CFEG (Geneva State Railway). French (short distance) then Swiss territory, French stock, French style infrastructure

 

 

 

[Gordonwis]

On 08/04/2021 at 21:47, Fat Controller said:

A large section of the Region d'Est of SNCF is right-hand running, as per Germany. At various points, there are flyovers where left-hand running becomes right-hand running.

 

Right hand running is strictly only on the lines of the former A-L railway 

[Gordonwis]

On 08/04/2021 at 12:39, Allegheny1600 said:

I am only guessing here but if your layout is set in the Alsace (France), you may get away with using German signals in France, this part of present day France having been part of Germany when the railways were being built.

 The major problem with representing both countries is that they run on different sides/hands so that would have to be overlooked!

 

 

It's not quite as simple as that. There were already railways in the area before it was ceded from France to Germany, but in the early 20th century the A-L network was expanded under German administration and right hand running is the norm. However some lines were built as l/h, modified under German adminstration to r/h. The French considered converting it all back to l/h on return of the territory to France but decided against it

[Suzie]

Border areas often have a bridge over a river, and the signalling demarcation is there, one countries' signals on one side of the bridge, and the other countries' on the other side. I have not worked out yet if there is any distant signalling in one system for the other system - it may be that the first signal encountered of the new system is a distant.

 

The overhead voltage will change on the bridge too.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Suzie