Bucklecombe

[Harlequin]

Thinking about the spaces available in my house for layouts, I returned to the area I had originally thought of for Hampton Malstead. It's a blank wall that was intended for shelving and wouldn't get in the way of normal life at all.

 

The original Hampton Malstead packed both the scenic area and fiddle yard into the space but that meant that it was highly compressed and the appearance was compromised by the plain technicality of the FY.

 

I realised that I could make the entire 3800mm (12ft 6in) width scenic by using temporally attached cassettes as the FY and then the entire width would be good to look at and would allow the layout track plan more room to breathe.

 

(I'm not abandoning the idea of a roundy-round layout somewhere. That is still the ultimate goal but this idea popped up and I had to follow it through...!)

 

Some of the aims were:

• Place the station in the landscape - don't fill  the box with just the station, leave room for non-railway features.
• Create a visually pleasing scene that's balanced and well-staged - like a 3D painting.
• Create a station that looks realistically small - not obviously compressed.
• Allow shunting to take place without the loco disappearing off scene.
• Have some industry nearby that requires specialised traffic over and above the normal goods and passenger workings.

 

And this is where I've got to:

 

You can probably see shades of many well-known GWR BLTs in this plan. They swim around in my mind and I think this time they have come together in a natural way without any obviously direct lifts.

 

The valley location creates some nice levels changes, with the ground rising  from the river towards the station level and then rising again behind it. It also helps to explain why the station track plan is small and curvy.

 

The loco release spur is long enough to hold a van as well as the loco - helps to get the brake van out of the way for easier shunting of the kickback.

 

The kickback industry is probably the biggest question mark.

 

Notice that, although this would realistically be operated using one-engine-in-steam, the position of the engine shed spur would allow limited shunting of the yard while passenger movements were going on - if you wanted to play trains.

 

There is no bay platform!

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Harlequin

[SZ]

41 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

There is no bay platform!

 

Good, and no headshunt, although there is.

 

Where are the coal staithes?

[Flying Pig]

3 minutes ago, SZ said:

Where are the coal staithes?

 

Blyth? Derwenthaugh? Sunderland High and Low?

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi Phil, I hope all’s well.  I like this - the emphasis on the scenic setting as the ‘theme’ comes across well, and is especially suitable for a layout in the living space.  As you say in the text, there are ‘shades’ of many GW BLT’s here - without being a copy.  I just wonder if I might raise some things that may be worth discussing:

• Kickback sidings are discussed regularly.  Ashburton is perhaps mentioned most often, as the Mill siding wasn’t Loco shunted.  Here, I wonder if the dairy - with the volume (and weight) of traffic it generates - means the extra faff of loco shunting would be justified.  So although a mill might be a natural water-side industry, the dairy works for me.
• The headshunt / non-headshunt is ingenious.  But would the railway company (GWR or the independent who built it) want to go the expense of a double track bridge?  I can see why it was worth bridging the river to get to the town, and it might have been broad gauge originally of course.  Is there a prototype that can be cited (as ever, it only needs one!)?
• Where do you envisage coal being unloaded?  The Merchant would probably want a small office, and a weighbridge?
• Would it help just to straighten out the line that goes onto the cassette so it’s a square connection?

Hope it’s OK to ask these.  As always, a really nice plan it’d be a joy to see turned into a layout.  Keith.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Zomboid]

The engine shed on the other side of the river feels a bit unlikely, especially with the double width bridge. Why wouldn't they have built the station just slightly to the south of the site you selected and saved themselves the bother of a bridge? And if the station needs to be on the north side of the river, why wouldn't the shed be?

 

On the other hand, the river and bridge are a nice scenic feature, so it would be perfectly reasonable to keep it for that reason.

[Flying Pig]

16 hours ago, Harlequin said:

The kickback industry is probably the biggest question mark.

 

It's certainly a modelling trope, but not unprototypical.  The question is how it would be worked - I suspect not by locomotive, but some research would be worthwhile.  Hand shunting has been mentioned recently and is imo preferable to unrealistic loco movements.

 

16 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Notice that, although this would realistically be operated using one-engine-in-steam, the position of the engine shed spur would allow limited shunting of the yard while passenger movements were going on - if you wanted to play trains.

 

 

The loco siding looks rather forced to me - a prototype example would be reassuring.  I'm not sure what you would gain from continuing shunting while passenger movements were happening on a one operator in steam layout and it does whiff of pushing the format too hard to me.  

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Hi Phil, I hope all’s well.  I like this - the emphasis on the scenic setting as the ‘theme’ comes across well, and is especially suitable for a layout in the living space.  As you say in the text, there are ‘shades’ of many GW BLT’s here - without being a copy.  I just wonder if I might raise some things that may be worth discussing:

 

• Kickback sidings are discussed regularly.  Ashburton is perhaps mentioned most often, as the Mill siding wasn’t Loco shunted.  Here, I wonder if the dairy - with the volume (and weight) of traffic it generates - means the extra faff of loco shunting would be justified.  So although a mill might be a natural water-side industry, the dairy works for me.
• The headshunt / non-headshunt is ingenious.  But would the railway company (GWR or the independent who built it) want to go the expense of a double track bridge?  I can see why it was worth bridging the river to get to the town, and it might have been broad gauge originally of course.  Is there a prototype that can be cited (as ever, it only needs one!)?
• Where do you envisage coal being unloaded?  The Merchant would probably want a small office, and a weighbridge?
• Would it help just to straighten out the line that goes onto the cassette so it’s a square connection?

Hope it’s OK to ask these.  As always, a really nice plan it’d be a joy to see turned into a layout.  Keith.

 

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

The engine shed on the other side of the river feels a bit unlikely, especially with the double width bridge. Why wouldn't they have built the station just slightly to the south of the site you selected and saved themselves the bother of a bridge? And if the station needs to be on the north side of the river, why wouldn't the shed be?

 

On the other hand, the river and bridge are a nice scenic feature, so it would be perfectly reasonable to keep it for that reason.

 

Hi Keith and Zomboid,

 

Good point about tankers actually requiring loco shunting - I hadn't thought of that. That's another point in favour of a dairy.

 

I think it was quite common for early branch line infrastructure to be built optimistically in readiness for double-track, even when they were otherwise struggling financially. (This is my feeling after much reading but I can't lay my hands on a specific reference at the moment.) More prosaically, you could say that the site is extremely restricted and the only space available for the shed was on the opposite side of the river, making best use of the site because road access is not needed to the shed. You could say that this is a compressed version of the real thing and combines the real shed position with a river bridge that in reality is further up the line. You could also say that many apparently illogical and unlikely features can be found in the real world. Ultimately, of course, it's done for scenic effect and I'm sure that fully "scenicked" it would look absolutely fine.

 

Coal would be unloaded from the back siding normally. It looks tight, I know, but that's justified partly by foreshortening (the scene would be viewed from a low angle) and by the similar arrangements at Henllan, where the weighbridge and office were some distance away from the yard. There might be a way to include them on scene realistically, but if not, then they are up the hill behind the trees somewhere!

 

Quote

Would it help just to straighten out the line that goes onto the cassette so it’s a square connection?

I don't think so. It would require the mainline to turn into the scene and then turn back again, possibly making it a bit too curvy. I imagine that the cassette connection outside the backscene would be a small further spur of track leading to a nice square mounting point and having the cassette angle into the room somewhat might be an advantage.

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[Harlequin]

5 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

The loco siding looks rather forced to me - a prototype example would be reassuring. 

Kickback sheds abound.

Long kickback to shed: Abbotsbury.

Long kickback over bridge to shed: An artifice to make the scene more appealing. But maybe there is an example out there somewhere...

 

5 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

I'm not sure what you would gain from continuing shunting while passenger movements were happening on a one operator in steam layout and it does whiff of pushing the format too hard to me.  

It was just an observation related to other recent threads. I don't think I would do it and perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it!

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

Perhaps you could extend the run round across the bridge? Would seem a bit more probable than what you're showing at the moment. And you can always say that the line was built with the intention to go further, but for whatever reason that never happened.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Why wouldn't they have built the station just slightly to the south of the site you selected and saved themselves the bother of a bridge? And if the station needs to be on the north side of the river, why wouldn't the shed be?

Presumably they’d still need to build a bridge, to get people and goods across?
 

If it was originally envisaged that the line would continue onwards (partly to justify the double track bridge - and helped by the way the end of the line is laid out as if that was intended), then the river would need crossing anyway.

[Zomboid]

It probably needs a higher level overview of the area around the town, the local watercourses etc to explain why it's how it is.

 

At least that's the kind of thing I enjoy...

[Keith Addenbrooke]

 

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:.

Long kickback to shed: Abbotsbury.

Nice example.

 

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I'm sure that fully "scenicked" it would look absolutely fine.

Agree completely - especially with quite a high viewing position (also suitable for a shelf layout).

 

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I imagine that the cassette connection outside the backscene would be a small further spur of track leading to a nice square mounting point and having the cassette angle into the room somewhat might be an advantage.

Good point.  I thought about an additional connecting piece after hitting ‘Send’ as well.  Guess the optimum arrangement depends on how long your cassettes are, how they are to be supported and how many you want ‘in play’ that need to be accessible (shelf under the layout?).

[Flying Pig]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Long kickback to shed: Abbotsbury.

 

Fair enough - and off the yard too.

 

Also, I hate to say it but I can think of a reason for a double track bridge: planned as cross country route, engineered accordingly, but money ran out and only ever laid as a branch.  

[Zomboid]

So here's a suggestion. I believe this is supposedly a GWR branch... The GWR line south from Westbury expired in Salisbury (so far as I know...), But let's say that it didn't. Instead they (or more likely a third party) continued it up the Avon valley through Amesbury and Durrington, with the aim of meeting up with the B&H at Pewsey (timeframes are going to need a bit of squinting...). A route like that would obviously be built with double track in mind, but much like the Fairford line, they ran out of money part of the way there (let's say somewhere near Netheravon), and this station represents that.

 

The bridge makes sense because the river up that way is really twisty, so staying on one bank would be quite difficult. Which is why they ran out of money.

 

Done, you have my permission to start building it now 

[Harlequin]

11 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

So here's a suggestion. I believe this is supposedly a GWR branch... The GWR line south from Westbury expired in Salisbury (so far as I know...), But let's say that it didn't. Instead they (or more likely a third party) continued it up the Avon valley through Amesbury and Durrington, with the aim of meeting up with the B&H at Pewsey (timeframes are going to need a bit of squinting...). A route like that would obviously be built with double track in mind, but much like the Fairford line, they ran out of money part of the way there (let's say somewhere near Netheravon), and this station represents that.

 

The bridge makes sense because the river up that way is really twisty, so staying on one bank would be quite difficult. Which is why they ran out of money.

 

Done, you have my permission to start building it now 

Thanks!

 

That's a really interesting idea for backstory and location. The ancient landscapes around the B&H are my kind of thing! (That might need a new place name, though...)

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[Flying Pig]

25 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The bridge makes sense because the river up that way is really twisty, so staying on one bank would be quite difficult. Which is why they ran out of money.

 

Totally off topic story about that valley.  I used to have a red pass for birdwatching on Salisbury Plain ranges and spent quite a bit of time with a friend on the eastern part of the range (which is open to the public anyway).  One day we met a couple of locals who told a story about how the big AS90 self-propelled guns would park up on the East Range and fire across the valley - road, villages and all - onto the impact zones on the Centre Ranges.  We thought that highly unlikely and queried it with one of the range safety officers next time we attended a safety briefing for pass renewal.  "Oh yes", he said, "and it's a helicopter corridor too. But the helicopters go through at a thousand feet and the shells go over at two thousand feet and we've never had a problem".

Edited April 9, 2021 by Flying Pig

[Rivercider]

I don't know much about the history or chronology of the St Ives branch

but the loco shed at St Ives is on the St Erth side of a viaduct,

 

cheers

[Zomboid]

If I were using something like the backstory I chucked together, I would also check that the alignment of the bridge and station platform/ building would work for the intended 2 track formation. As it stands there would be quite a tight curve from the top track over the bridge to get though the platform, but that might actually be a reasonable radius.

[davepen]

You may wish to compare with and consider Aberaeron, which had a similar stream through the middle, a double track bridge, although as part of the run round loop.  The was an engine shed across the bridge, right next to the camping coach.

Always wondered how they'd expand that line down to the harbour, perhaps  a few more bridges required.

 

 

[Harlequin]

17 minutes ago, davepen said:

You may wish to compare with and consider Aberaeron, which had a similar stream through the middle, a double track bridge, although as part of the run round loop.  The was an engine shed across the bridge, right next to the camping coach.

Always wondered how they'd expand that line down to the harbour, perhaps  a few more bridges required.

 

 

 

Dave! You beat me to it!

 

While I was looking up St Ives in "A historical survey of Great Western Engine Sheds 1947" (great book!) I found Aberayron (the book spelling). 

 

It's a single platform BLT at the coastal end of single line which has followed a river valley. As Dave said, the river flows under the run round loop (so double track bridge) and the engine shed is kicking back off the loop on the inland side.

 

I can't show you the plan from the book for copyright reasons and sadly none of the online mapping services seem to show it either...

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

Its kind of implied by this http://disused-stations.org.uk/a/aberayron/index.shtml

 

The picture looking away from the buffers has the two track girder bridge visible if you zoom in enough...

[KingEdwardII]

59 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Aberayron (the book spelling)

Definitely an anglicisation - Aberaeron is the Welsh name of the town. I lived in Aberystwyth in my youth and never remember seeing the spelling "Aberayron".

 

Railway line only completed in 1911 - closed to passengers by 1951 and gone completely in 1965...

a really short lifespan. Unsurprising in that the population is only around 1500 souls and the region generally very rural.

 

I have a photo of Aberaeron station in 1959 in the book "Great Western Branch Line Album" and it still looks in good condition despite the demise of passenger services.

 

Yours, Mike

[woodenhead]

Regardless of any prototypical shortcomings that may exist, I think it looks nice and a nice 12 foot scenic area sounds about right for a small branch station.

[Danemouth]

Aberayron appears as a track plan and signalling Diagram in Volume One of R J Clark's Historical Survey of Great Western Stations.

 

Dave

[Flying Pig]

Signalling diagram for Aberayron.  It appears in the NLS collection on the 1948 6" map (the only 25" map is dated 1904 and too early!), but you have to search for Aberaeron.