Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hi

Can anyone help me sort out the differing colours of Bachmanns BR Mk 1 Southern Region Coaches. I have  several rakes but there are 2 distinct colours . I like to keep my rakes roughly the same, I know in real life that didn’t happen, but it’s just me. 

I thought I had sorted it out, but no.

The earlier stock seems to be lighter than later.

Eg I have a Br Mk1 Brake 2nd part no 39-078 Labelled on the box Br(SR) Green it’s the lighter shade, but another coach 39-078D same coach is much darker,  labelled Green (SR). 

It seems the later suffixes obviously produced later, are Darker, is there a way of telling from the number when they changed?

ive downloaded several listings but none are definitive, in fact the 2 coaches I have given above are both listed as Br ( Southern Region) Green Livery, on Bachmanns  Branchline by product number, but very different in colour

hope someone can help

B

Edited by Butler
Typo error
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold

There are definitely two colours involved. Earlier releases were in a colour that many people complained was too light, so Bachmann changed to a colour5 that others complained was too dark. The change came at different part number suffixes for each type of coach so, as far as I know, there is no definitive way of finding out which is which. I overcame this problem by simply disposing of the older pale coloured stock and reforming my rakes from the later darker stock.

 

The release of the Hornby versions (despite the presence of roundels) helped to regain the balance within my rakes.

 

I know that doesn't help you to find which ones are which, but it may help explain things a bit.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Mick

Im the other way round, I prefer the lighter, and I thought that Hornby matched the lighter Bachmanns very well, except the roof.

I think you’re right, the later suffixes are darker, and the boxes are labelled differently, but the Bachmann stock list makes them all the same.

Did the SR not have roundalls then? 

In reality they were all shades. Are you a Southern man then. I used to go to school on a steam hauled train, from Norwood to East Croydon, the train was I think for  Tonbridge which was non electric then. 

Regards

B

  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)

Bachmann did produce a list of model numbers, and although it has not been updated for a while it does include all the MK1 models produced so far, including the Bulleids which have 3 different colours - malachite, SR Green and BR green with the latter matching the dark green MK1s. 

 

List is a pdf file which I've attached here - branchline_products_by_item_no_rev11.pdf

 

Different names such as BR Green, BR (SR) Green and BR (Southern Region) Green differentiate the types, with the higher suffix letter being the darkest. 

 

 

Edited by RFS
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Butler said:

 

Did the SR not have roundalls then? 

 

 

When you look at rakes of green, maroon and choc/cream Mark 1s in photos it's apparent that the application of the BR roundel to Mark 1 stock was by no means universal, and SR green stock looks to have been the least so adorned. The Parkin book has a BR photo of green BCK S21263 with roundel so Bachmann's model of this vehicle is correct, but other green examples are very difficult to find. Parkin mentions that the Western Region at one stage did attempt to gather roundel-decorated stock together for its named expresses - as if anyone would have noticed, but that's the Western for you!

Like others I did wonder if Bachmann's dark green shade was wrong to begin with, until I found colour photos where the stock is noticeably darker than the BR green motive power hauling it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If I recall correctly, only the BCK's and one or two other green coaches got roundels.

 

Something Hornby got painfully wrong on their Mk1's which had them on every carriage and were a right PITA to remove cleanly.

 

And I am not convinced any of the shades of green produced by both manufacturers over the years have been correct.  The darker shades in particular. 

Edited by John M Upton
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the the BR emblem on coaches was intended to distinguish named trains. Those who had the day to day job of running trains would have other things to worry about.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Neil Phillips said:

The Parkin book has a BR photo of green BCK S21263 with roundel so Bachmann's model of this vehicle is correct, but other green examples are very difficult to find.

 

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

If I recall correctly, only the BCK's and one or two other green coaches got roundels.

 

Interesting picture here on Robert Carroll's website of the Royal Wessex with a train of green MK1s all of which have a roundel.

 

35015_RoyalWessex_Wimbledon

 

Edited by RFS
Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty much; also there seemed to be a tendency, as opposed to a hard and fast rule, to apply roundels to specific vehicles like catering or sleepers, and then to first class before going down the pecking order.  On the WR, the 1956-62 liveried chocolate and cream coaches were built in sets for the named trains; I was familiar with the 'Red Dragon' from this period but would not like to state that all it's coaches had roundels.

 

Discussions about exact colours are fraught, as one has to consider the variable even when an absolutely definitve colour has been established as correct, itself by no means a foregone conclusiong.  We all know what we mean by SR green or malachite green, but to be precisely objective is something else.  Photos are dependent on the ambient light in which they were originally exposed, correct exposure, correct developing and printing of the film, correct transmission of colour into another form when reprinting, again when scanning, and when printing the scan. 

 

My impression was that, when SR post 1956 liveried green coaches were coupled to reasonably clean BR green liveried steam locomotives, there were 2 sorts of green on the coaches, one a lighter than the loco green which I thought of as Malachite, and a darker version that was about the same temperature as the loco green but a more blueish hue, which I think may have been a later version.  These are subjective opinions based on my memories of the stock in service, when of course it was weathered and faded to an infinite variety of degrees.

 

My general approach to liveries is that if it matches the impression that I can reference from my own memory, that'll do, but this gets a bit wobbly as I was very young when the last blood'n'custard and plain crimson non gangwayed were beoming rare, and confused the lattter with unlined maroon at the time.  I do not worry if coaches in nominally the same livery on my layout do not match exactly in colour; few did in reality, but where coaches are in sets that were repainted at the same time, which means B sets on my layout, I paint them and weather them at the same time to maintain the appearance they would have presented in reality.

 

The old Airfix B set (I have none of these on Cwmdimbath, my B set is Comet E147s) and auto trailer in BR maroon livery do not correspond to my memory of unlined maroon, being an odd purply sort of maroon, and these models can be considerably improved by repainting,  I have doubts about the colour of my Hornby 57' suburbans as well, they seem to me to be a bit too red for crimson, if that makes sense, but I am not yet going to repaint to match my Comets.  I like to have a variety of liveries on my layout, one of the reasons for choosing the 1948-58 period, and have two Southern vans in green livery, a Hornby B which carries 1956 livery and is perforce fairly clean, and a Baccy PMV in Bullied Sunshine malachite under heavy weathering.  Both look 'ok' to me!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I always preferred the first version of Bachmann green myself and when I used to model BR(S) I tended to try and stick to only buying the older releases of Mk1's as a result.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I seem to recall similar problems with different shades of colour (lined maroon, in this case) on Bachmann non-gangwayed Mark 1 suburban coaches. The early models were, to my eye, unacceptably dark, and in a mixed rake including later coaches they looked very odd. I too solved the problem by disposing of the earlier models and replacing with later ones, to achieve greater uniformity. 

 

Whilst I agree that prototype rakes of (notionally) similar-liveried coaches often displayed different hues (dirt, repaints, etc), I think that this phenomenon doesn't always translate well into the model world; it's probably an issue of "scaling" of colour. For that reason I also like to run uniform rakes on my layout. 

 

David C.    

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
32 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

 

Interesting picture here on Robert Carroll's website of the Royal Wessex with a train of green MK1s all of which have a roundel.

 

35015_RoyalWessex_Wimbledon

 

 

It was only those MK1s destined for the Royal Wessex that received the roundels

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

If you study photographs it is possible to find examples of both the lighter and darker versions.  That may be because the lighter version is a good representation of the green on a sunny day, whereas the darker version is a good representation of the green on a dull day.

 

If so, then the only advice is not to mix the darker and lighter versions in a rake of coaches, nor in rakes passing each other.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well thanks to all, for the answers and opinions. Back to my original question, it would appear that the earlier or lack of suffix on the Bachmann Mk1 SR Coaches, then the more chance it is lighter. Speaking from my own collection, any coaches with a suffix of b, or higher are the darker green . The highest lighter green coach I have is a 2nd Open suffix b, which is still the lighter green.

I agree that in scale, the rake need to be fairly close in colour to look good, especially if none are weathered. None of mine are weathered, purely personal, but I like clean coaches, track and locos. 

I wish I’d paid more attention to the colour of the coaches I was riding in on the way to school!

B

  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears that the last lighter green production was in 2007, with production from 2009 onwards being in darker green.

 

LAST LIGHTER GREEN

SK  -  39-028 C

SO  -  39-053 C

BSK  -  39-078 C

CK  -  39-128 A  (39-128 with 1st class stripe, 39-128 A without)

FK  -  39-153 A  (both 39-153 and 39-153 A with 1st class stripes)

BG - 39-178 A

BCK - 39-228 A (both 39-228 and 39-228 A with 1st class stripes)

RFO  -  39-253  (without 1st class stripe)

RMB  -  39-262

GUV  -  none - first issue in darker green

 

FIRST DARKER GREEN

SK  -  39-028 D

SO  -  39-053 D

BSK  -  39-078 D

CK  -  39-128 B

FK  -  39-153 B

BG - 39-178 B

BCK - 39-228 B

RFO  -  I can find no evidence of it being issued in darker green to date

RMB  -  39-262 A

GUV  -  39-273

  • Thanks 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you 73080 for your detailed info, I concur so far as my experience is.

On the subject of roundels, many have stated they were only used for specific trains, named etc, but many emu’s had them. I have many pictures of them on all sorts of emus. It would seem to be mostly on yellow fronted units. 

Yellow fronts are another issue. I believe they date from mid 60’s, but I have an Ian Allan locospotters annual of Xmas 1963, and many diesels already have yellow fronts!

B

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Butler said:

Thank you 73080 for your detailed info, I concur so far as my experience is.

On the subject of roundels, many have stated they were only used for specific trains, named etc, but many emu’s had them. I have many pictures of them on all sorts of emus. It would seem to be mostly on yellow fronted units. 

Yellow fronts are another issue. I believe they date from mid 60’s, but I have an Ian Allan locospotters annual of Xmas 1963, and many diesels already have yellow fronts!

B

If I recall correctly, EMU's were classed as motive power, not loco hauled coaching stock and therefore received roundels on the driving/motor coaches only.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Butler said:

Thank you 73080 for your detailed info, I concur so far as my experience is.

On the subject of roundels, many have stated they were only used for specific trains, named etc, but many emu’s had them. I have many pictures of them on all sorts of emus. It would seem to be mostly on yellow fronted units. 

Yellow fronts are another issue. I believe they date from mid 60’s, but I have an Ian Allan locospotters annual of Xmas 1963, and many diesels already have yellow fronts!

B

The small yellow warning panels date from 1962 IIRC but the speed at which they were applied varied from region to region, and the Southern was not the quickest of the mark with them.  The larger ‘full end’ panels began to appear in 1967; blue liveries came in 1966. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.