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Good evening

This is my first post, and I am hoping that you can give some help and advice.  So, I will start with some background information.  I have a garage with a divided section measuring 17-foot x 8 foot.  This is insulated and heated.  The entrance is at one end of the 8-foot-wide section.  As a young boy I spent many happy hours in and around Hornsey Steam shed B34, so I would like to try and recreate some of my memories from those happy days.  From reading many of your articles I believe it is best to use Pico oo track and run the whole thing on DCC.  I need to be realistic on the size, so this is where I am hoping you can help me.  Please see a map of the shed and track layout in the late 1950’s.  Obviously, I would like to recreate a track layout that is shown, but I do not know how to scale off the drawing, so I have no idea if this will fit the space, I have available.  It may need to be trimmed.  Any advice would be warmly welcomed.

 

 

 

Track layout for hornsey.pdf

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17 by eight is a decent space even if part of the eight is required for access.

 

Curiously, although I'm sure you will get much better suggestions than this, as the shed infrastructure and sidings are still there you can scale it from google maps at least.

 

However as a subject, Im not sure what you can do with it as an operational layout. Do you intend mainline trains passing by for example, hard to fit in as they have to come from somewhere and go somewhere. Just the shed movements wont offer great operating possibilities with masses of lines from the shed condensing to 2 tracks. I used to know the area and I have a memory of freight sidings towards Haringey, to get those in you will have to curve the layout round - you might finish up with a roundy layout with the shed on one long side. With such a big space you have to have access up the middle.

 

Someone will com ein with a complete layout proposal in a minute, just wait.

 

And welcome to the madhouse

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NLS Maps have a handy measurement tool.

image.png.dda9dc9b6b1f12eb17026824515064ce.png

You haven't said what scale you want to work in. If I assume N (~2mm to 1 ft) then the shed would be around 570mm long and 230mm wide, whilst the overall track layout is something like 670mm wide and 1,700mm long. OO gauge (4mm to 1 ft) will require double - so overall the shed scene alone in OO would be roughly 12 ft x 4 ft.  But, as RobinofLoxley said, it's what you want to do with the rest of the set up that counts, if you actually want to run anything.

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Hello Robin  thank you for your response. I have been collecting rolling stock for the last 20 years when funds allowed. Most of the locomotives are in display cases the rest are boxed and in a cupboard. my first plan was to use a shed setting were they could be displayed to best advantage all be it with limited movement. once I know the size I need for the shed, this will help me see if there is room for running lines or a fiddle yard were locomotives can be taken off shed. Its one step at a time at the moment but at some point I will need to decide what I want to archive once I know the options. Yes you are right there is a large amount of sidings in and around the shed. just past the shed there was a large gas works which had its own tracks once this closed the track was used to store carriages. regards Dougie

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Happy to help if I can.

 

One major q would be to what extent you want to compress. To illustrate, Camden 1B was famously or even notoriously cramped and constrained, and since it was full of my favourite locos and had one of the busiest mainlines in the country directly alongside, it made a perfect subject for me.  I had one compromised go at it in a 20’x12’ shed.  The current iteration is to scale and is in a purpose built loft of 39’ 7” x 12’.  Just shows how much space the real thing took up.

 

Iain

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Hello Nick thank you so much for your help with the sizing. sorry for not stating I wanted to use OO. I now have some idea what space is left which may enable me to have some running lines and a fiddle yard. I have to be realistic about my modeling skills so I don't want to bite off more than  I can chew. thank you again. Regards Dougie

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Hi Lain  thank you for your response. I did try to bunk Camden shed a couple of times.

My father was a fireman at Kentish Town 14B and I would have liked to model that shed. but I know I do not have the space to do it justice or the skill level. Its possible to save a bit of space with Hornsey shed by reducing the shed down to six lines. I will watch your progress with interest and no doubt it will give me inspiration. regards Dougie

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The problem with  modelling Hornsey shed in OO is it's a monster, there are around 20 parallel roads some with shed walls between so you really need around 4ft width  which is about a foot more than you can comfortably reach over.   The engine shed itself will really need modelling without a roof or else you can't see what is in it.   Not a huge problem with DC but you wil need a filing system to work out which loco is where in the stygan darkness with DCC.    In practice It's going to be more or less a diorama.

The straight shed is awkward in that you have to shift half a dozen locos to get at the one at the buffer stops, In the full size here, they would couple up a couple in steam to the rest and move them en bloc.

Then there is nowhere for the locos to have a run with a train.   Its doable, but niche and without anywhere to give the locos a run I reckon it will be an absolute pain to keep running.

 

Camden Shed makes a lot more sense, a cramped but well designed shed essentially for top link locos withan essentially passenger only line passing, but that's LMS, and I don't know of anything similar LN

 

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Good morning David.

Thank you for your post, you raise some interesting points.

Should my model be of an actual place that I knew but with limited running opportunities or a fictitious layout with plenty of running opportunities?

So, I need to understand what I want to achieve with this model.

I found that I was captivated by steam sheds, the smell, sounds, train crews talking and joking but most of all the size of the locomotives.

Taking my love of sheds into consideration, I tend to lean towards building a steam shed which I hoped would remined me of my youth.

Your point is valid in so much that after a while I could become bored with the lack of opportunities to move the locomotives and I might as well leave them on the wall in a showcase which is where they are at the moment.

I know that watching a train go round on a continuous loop is not that inspiring to me.

Over the years I have enjoyed looking at end to end layouts and I have thought this may work for me, but You are quite right, Hornsey would only be an end.

I have included a drawing of the space available for this project.

Number 1 on the plan could be a station area.  I like the design that Harlequin has done with C J Freezers Minories design.

Number 2 on the plan would be the shed area. This area is big enough for sheds, turntable and coaling towers as well as giving me enough space to store my collection of locomotives.

Now, in my head I would see this work like this.

A locomotive having been prepared would leave the shed and go to the station.

The station pilot would have placed the coaches in the right position ready for the assigned locomotive.

The train would leave the station and disappear through the tunnel to the fiddle yard number 3 on plan.

Thank you for your input and please keep your thoughts coming.

If you have any ideas for a track plan for the space I have available, please let me know.

Regards Dougie

 

 

 

 

size of shed.pdf

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1 hour ago, LMS14B said:

Your point is valid in so much that after a while I could become bored with the lack of opportunities to move the locomotives and I might as well leave them on the wall in a showcase which is where they are at the moment.

 

I would imagine that if operated prototypically there would be a lot of movement at a shed like Hornsey, particularly as it was involved in suburban traffic which would have pronounced morning and evening peaks on weekdays.

 

The Shed Bash page for Hornsey is here.

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I have had a few days to reflect on the post regarding my layout.

The result has been to make me focus on what I would like to achieve.

I know I can not travel back in time.

 But I am hoping, that modelling an area that I spent some time at in my teens, will transport me back If only mentally.

So, I am going to try and model Hornsey shed of the late 1950.

I realised that this is a personal journey so have no intension of exhibiting.

Now, I will keep you posted with my updates going forward.

The timber as been ordered for the framing and this will give me a base board of 12x4 feet.

I would be grateful for some advice before I start please, firstly when I make the framework do I have to make allowance for point motors? Secondly, I was going to use Peco 100 track but I was wondering should I wait for the new bullhead rail?

Look forward to any advice.

Regards

Dougie

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I think the actual locos themselves are more important than the track that they are on, from what you have said?

 

You may have some quite complicated trackwork outside the shed, code 100 Peco has lots of options with points with 3 different lengths, helps to avoid the baseboard joins which is essential. Peco code 100 track centres are closer together than Hornby which makes a lot of difference when you have many roads close together such as in a shed setting.

 

Even if you don't want to buy the software, you can get a trial version of Anyrail with a 50-piece track limit but you can play around with sections quite effectively to see where point motors might lie, but remember its the location of the tie bar that mainly dictates the point motor position, not the toe end of the rails for example. Different point motors have a different footprint and relative position so thats a decision that could be important.

 

 

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55 minutes ago, LMS14B said:

I would be grateful for some advice before I start please, firstly when I make the framework do I have to make allowance for point motors?

First, you need to plan that points and point motors do not straddle a baseboard join. I used Anyrail to plan, and print out full size to layout on wallpaper. If you keep individual baseboards to a manoeuvrable size/weight, you can  lay track on top side, and then turn them over to fit point motors (and wiring). But first you need to decide  which type of point motors (physical size may be a factor- I had to ditch some Cobalt IPs because they projected too deep under the board, fouling tracks below. But depending on your baseboard build, framing etc, you may also want to consider physical size. And how you plan to control them, really to help planning where switching and frog power devices need to be sited. Plenty of advice on here on both subjects, but if starting from scratch there’s nothing like buying and trying samples, although that can add cost.

 

As for bullhead rail, I have no experience but have read that the variety of point configurations is currently significantly less than those for code 100. As Peco seem to be struggling to keep pace with demand at present, I personally wouldn’t wait. In fact, you may be lucky to find all Code 100 points in stock everywhere.

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Good evening Robin.

Thank you for your post.

You hit the nail on the head, I am fascinated by steam locomotives and not so much the infrastructure.

I have taken your advice and purchased Anyrail 6, I’ve only had quick look, but it seems good value for money.

No doubt it is going to be challenging and it is a bit daunting but hopefully I can do a fair representation of Hornsey shed.

The information regarding the tie bar on the point motors was a good tip.

You will see that ITG recommends that I buy one just to see the size.

Regards

Dougie

 

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Good evening ITG.

Thank you for your post.

That is a good idea to flip over the boards, so simply.

I was contemplating using hinges so each section could be lifted and worked on.

Both yours and Robin ideas regarding point motors, I have taken on board.

So, I will order a couple that way I will understand how they work but more importantly how they fit.

Peco 100 seems the way to go, but first I need to sort the track plan.

Regards

Dougie

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I would suggest another thread on here that might be worth a look is Feltham Road by Ray Norwood,

he has used selective compression of a real location. I am no modeller, but enjoy visiting exhibitions

and have seen his model of Feltham Road several times, and found it very atmospheric.

 

I was born very close to Exmouth Junction shed, Feltham was built in the same style of concrete,

Ray's version has 4 roads instead of 6 in the real Feltham. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/104259-feltham-road-mpd/page/11/

 

cheers

 

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If you are building a 4 feet wide baseboard I hope that you are having it as an island site, as if you have one edge against one of your walls you will have considerable difficulty reaching across to be able to do anything to the rear 18 inches of board without potentially clashing with stuff at the front.

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13 hours ago, LMS14B said:

So, I will order a couple that way I will understand how they work but more importantly how they fit.

Also worth deciding actually how they are controlled. Some DCC modellers use a separate DC supply for points motors - that option means your point motors will only be the motor, plus (probably) a frog power switching capability somehow. Whereas if you stick with DCC for points, you could try  (a) self contained decoder/motor/frog switch (b) all former items as separate units (c) separate motors with blocks of decoders/frog switches in one unit. And there’s possibly other options as well. Also, a fundamental choice is between slow moving blades (eg Cobalt, Tortoise) or blades that switch (SEEPs, solenoids).

IMHO, I’d stick with DCC, but it’s very much a personal preference. Remember, that for a project of the size you’re planning, there will be a significant cost in powering points, which ever way is chosen.

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14 hours ago, LMS14B said:

I have taken your advice and purchased Anyrail 6

Lots of good tutorials on YouTube etc.

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Good evening Rivercider.

Thank you for sending the link for Feltham road. I must agree it captures that feeling that’s difficult to describe, but you know it’s just right.

I hope I can achieve some of that atmosphere with Hornsey.

Now, at the moment I am still working on the track plan, it’s harder than I thought.

Regards

Dougie

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FWIW I'm rebuilding my layout at the moment and have decided to replace the SEEP point motors that I had before with MTB-1 point motors. In installation terms the difference is that for SEEPs the point motor lies directly under the tie bar as the operating rod is central, and there is only one orientation possible. With MTB's the operating rod is clamped on one end of the PM so it can be oriented two ways. The overall footprint of the MTB is a bit smaller so in complex junctions there is no possibility of an overlap occurring, as happened to me with SEEPs. They are very different operationally but as I havnt started running with the MTB-1s yet I have no information to offer, although others speak very highly of them.

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Good evening Nick

Thank you for your post.

You are right of course; it will be impossible to reach over a 4-foot board.

I have a plan to resolve this problem but its untested and is still on the drawing board.

So, I intend to make part of the shed lift out to give me access to the rear, fingers crossed.

In the long run I my need to modify the track plane so it looks right. (but hope not)

It seems at the moment; I am suffering from ambition over ability. 

Just to make it clear it is the engine shed I want to lift out and not the shed it sits in. LOL

Regards

Dougie

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27 minutes ago, LMS14B said:

Good evening Rivercider.

Thank you for sending the link for Feltham road. I must agree it captures that feeling that’s difficult to describe, but you know it’s just right.

I hope I can achieve some of that atmosphere with Hornsey.

Now, at the moment I am still working on the track plan, it’s harder than I thought.

Regards

Dougie

Take your time over the track plan. Post it here when you have finished and you will get a lot of feedback. Planning is the most important part.

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Hi ITG

Yes, I become a you tube fan its fascinating.

The funny thing is, I have found answers to some of the questions but then it raises others.

I believe the only way forward is to use DCC this should make moving stock in and around the steam shed easy. It would be good if I can achieve that slow moving blade action with a bit of bounce on the signal. At the moment I am still trying to get the track plan to work.

My evenings are sitting in front of a laptop with a mug of tea and Anyrail 6.

Regards

Dougie

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