Help with design

[RobinofLoxley]

23 hours ago, LMS14B said:

Good evening ITG

sorry for not responding to your earlier post.

I've been concentrating on trying to get a track plan that works, and not paying enough attention to the basic things.

since deciding not to replicate Hornsey track by track,  I've have been liberated to an extent.

Harlequin wanted to make sure That I  had enough distance between the tracks in the shed so that it looked correct.

i just assumed that I did.

Too be honest I do need a bit of hand holding so thank you for your post every bit of information is greatly received.

regards

Dougie

 

A good thing about having Anyrail is that you can store all the plans and go back to earlier versions if you think you have lost anything as the main theme progresses.

 

You have finished up with a layout almost without curves at this point, while I know its the territory and I did point you that way a bit, it looks a bit flat.

[Harlequin]

On 18/04/2021 at 18:00, LMS14B said:

 

Harlequin wanted to make sure That I  had enough distance between the tracks in the shed so that it looked correct.

i just assumed that I did.

Too be honest I do need a bit of hand holding so thank you for your post every bit of information is greatly received.

regards

Dougie

 

 

Hi Dougie,

By scaling the map I reckon the prototype spacing of the shed roads was ~55mm @ 1:76 scale. That means there's room to use Streamline Large Radius turnouts to feed them if you want and if you choose to replicate the prototype spacing. Like this:

(Sorry about the colours.) The purple turnouts are Streamline Large Radius turnouts joined end to end. Their natural 12° angle automatically gives some compression over the prototype and using smaller radii turnouts would not make that point ladder any shorter - unless you play with the angles and then it gets much more complicated.

 

I've roughly dropped on a Single Slip (red) on the line down to the turntable near the engine shed. I think the map shows that.

 

I see that there are actually two connections between the shed area and the rest of the network, from both North and South:

(The red circled sidings are probably for empty and full coal wagons associated with the cenotaph coaler, to answer a question above.)

 

So, this all raises a question:

Is it an option to build your layout around the outside of your 17ft by 8ft space?

 

I ask because that would allow you to use most of one side for your shed scene with a fiddle yard on the other long side of the space.

You can see that the double track connection on the right (south) is already naturally turning and you could make it turn more so that it goes partially around one of the short ends of the space. Thus, instead of 9ft scenic length you could have maybe 18, 19, maybe 20ft... (Need to draw it out to know for sure.)

You could also then model the two coal sidings circled by treating the footbridge as a scenic break and just let them run off scene and imagine them extending beyond the footbridge. In fact they would extend into the fiddle yard.

You would also then have the option of a roundy-round running around the entire space, between the red arrows, through the scene and through the fiddle yard. Just having a loco running around can be therapeutic but it's also useful for running locos in and tweaking DCC CV settings (if that's your bag).

All this would allow the layout to be more operationally interesting.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Harlequin

[Flying Pig]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I've roughly dropped on a Single Slip (red) on the line down to the turntable near the engine shed. I think the map shows that.

 

If you peer hard at this photo it looks like it may actually have been a Barry slip.

 

 

[LMS14B]

Good morning Harlequin.

Thank you for your post.

interestingly in Mays addition of Hornby magazine page i24 it show the area you have circled in red.

The picture was taken from the footbridge and shows the carriage sidings.

The baseboard sits on three outside walls.

the right hand side there is a bit more flexibility you will see from the diagram the track curves to the right. 

this leads to a space 42x 48 inches which I planed to use for my fiddle yard covered with a back scene.

Now, I have the possibility to use a little bit of space from the second garage so the fiddle yard could be extended by 8 feet but only  2 feet wide.

You raise the point about running tracks and the benefits and this makes perfect sense.

there is the opportunity to run a couple of loops at a lower level.

This would give a viewing length of about 8 feet with the rest hidden under the steam shed area.

I have shown this on the diagram with a couple of lengths of straight track.

Hope this makes sense, thank you again its much appreciated.

Regards

Dougie

 

 

 

[LMS14B]

Good morning Flying Pig

Thank you for your post.

I have no idea what a Barry Slip is.

but I am curious so I will look it up.

Regards

Dougie

 

[Harlequin]

Can you show us a sketch plan of the space available with dimensions and locations of doors, please?

 

[Flying Pig]

35 minutes ago, LMS14B said:

Good morning Flying Pig

Thank you for your post.

I have no idea what a Barry Slip is.

but I am curious so I will look it up.

Regards

Dougie

 

 

Click on the phrase in my post as it is linked to a thread with photos and discussion.  A Barry Slip is two points overlapped frog to frog - the effect is like a double slip with one of the straight through routes removed.  I don't think they were common and you certainly can't buy one from Peco.

[LMS14B]

please find plan of garage as requested.

[Harlequin]

Thanks.

 

Just to confirm: Are the internal dimensions of the main space 18ft by 8ft ?

 

I'm not sure of the practicality of having the fiddle yard in another room. Better to have the entire layout in the one space, if possible, IMHO.

 

[LMS14B]

Good afternoon Harlequin

Yes I can confirm the internal space I have in the main room 18x8.

The door is 4 foot wide.

Regarding the fiddle yard in the next garage my plan was to cover this with CCTV.

But its not ideal.

Regards

Dougie

 

[Harlequin]

Hi Dougie,

 

I think you could fit it all in the one room if you accepted some compression and compromises. CCTV will get you so far but inevitably you'll need physical access to the FY more often than is comfortable and it could become annoying - especially in winter when you've just got the layout room warmed up!

 

Is it correct to say that the design doesn't need to cope with lots of rolling stock? It's mainly locos, a lot of which would be standing in the shed area, with a proportion off-scene when you are operating the layout. I guess the largest set of rolling stock would be coal wagons, which would need off-scene storage and a few odd vans. No coaching stock, though. Is that right?

 

Ideally I think you need a way to turn locos while they are off-scene, so that you can send them out and they come back later facing the other way as if they've just made a complicated trip and or been turned at some other depot. That will give the turntable on scene some operational rationale in the model.

 

The problem with AnyRail is that it tends to create rather anodyne grey angular track plans whereas if you look at Hornsey it's quite flowing and has some interesting organic wiggles, which are unique to the place. Would it be OK if I posted something drawn in my own software? If so, how would you feel if I moved elements around slightly to try to make a visually pleasing model railway scene and, here's the biggie, how would you feel if I reduced the number of shed roads to 6?

 

[LMS14B]

Good evening Harlequin.

Thank you so much for taking an interest in my project and I would appreciate your help.

On reading your last post a few times, I believe you understand what my aim is with Hornsey.

So let me answer the points you raised.

I have collected between 50 to 60 locomotives over the years, mostly Hornby, that sit in a show case or boxed up in the wardrobe. Not certain how many I can covert to DCC.

My aim is to run a timetable system which would be computer generated.

Hopefully, it will work like this.

The computer will generate a random locomotive number with a departure time from the shed.

I will then locate the locomotive, move other locomotives away from that road and send it off scene.

The process will continue until the shed is almost empty.

When the locomotives return, they will need to coaled and turned ready for the next shift just as you say.

You are completely correct I do not have any coaches at present but a shed full of coal wagons.

Yes, I would be happy to reduce the shed down to 6 roads if this would give a more pleasing and interesting model.

Like most of the railway it was for ever changing and Hornsey was remodelled several times mainly due to expansion but also to repair damage caused during the war.

So, feel free to move things around.

Thank you again.

Dougie

[Harlequin]

Hi Dougie,

 

Thanks for letting me have a stab at this.

 

Before I try to develop the design properly here's an almost direct tracing of Hornsey shed (c. 1954) using Peco Streamline parts, just to illustrate some of the problems:

There's no Settrack and all curves are just flexitrack. Large radius turnouts are purple, Medium are light brown, Large Ys and Curved turnouts are dark green. The smallest radii are in the two dark brown double slips.

 

You can see where I've been able to follow the real track plan closely and where I've had to deviate slightly to fit in the fixed geometry of the Streamline turnouts.

 

The problems are:

• It's nearly 5 feet wide.
• The coaling stage is obscured by the shed. (At least, the locos using it are.)
• The crane is also hidden behind the shed.
• The shed presents a side wall to the viewer. It would be nice if you could see into the entrance from more angles.
• Locos will mostly be side-on to the viewer. It would be nice to get some 3/4 angles.
• The trackwork is very dense (very expensive). Realistic but maybe too much for a model - rolling stock at the back will be hidden if there's too much going on at the front.
• It needs to be combined with a practical fiddle yard in the available space somehow.

It will take me a few days to get to grips with this.

 

[Flying Pig]

 

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

The shed presents a side wall to the viewer. It would be nice if you could see into the entrance from more angles.

 

On the other hand it would make an interesting backdrop to a cameo of the turntable and coaler as shown in the photo I linked above, though probably not presented at that angle.

[LMS14B]

Good morning Harlequin.

you have captured Hornsey shed perfectly something I have been unable to do.

Regarding the depth of the model  my plan was to make part/all the shed lift out including the baseboard  and track.

This would then give me access to the rear parts. 

hopefully by using stay alive DCC the small joints in the track would not be a problem.

The shed roof was damaged during the war so there was a period of time the roof was partly open until a brand new roof was fitted,

I only mention this because I had considered modelling the shed without a roof.

The door to the garage opens out so I could extended the first part  of the baseboard to 5 Foot without a problem.

one thing that is strange the cenotaph coaler should, I believe, have a road next to it for the coal trucks to deliver the coal.

But this is not shown on the original drawing.

Thank you.

regards

Dougie

 

 

 

[LMS14B]

Good morning Flying Pig

that picture brought back some happy memories.

I stood at that very spot hundreds of times the foot bridge offered a perfect view.

the interesting thing is that the express locomotives would often over fill there tenders with coal.

this would fall off as they left the shed.

regards

Dougie

 

 

 

[Harlequin]

7 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

On the other hand it would make an interesting backdrop to a cameo of the turntable and coaler as shown in the photo I linked above, though probably not presented at that angle.

 

22 minutes ago, LMS14B said:

Good morning Flying Pig

that picture brought back some happy memories.

I stood at that very spot hundreds of times the foot bridge offered a perfect view.

the interesting thing is that the express locomotives would often over fill there tenders with coal.

this would fall off as they left the shed.

regards

Dougie

 

 

 

 

I won't lose that cameo, I'm just going to try to angle things very slightly to get a slightly better view of the front of the shed.

 

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, LMS14B said:

Good morning Harlequin.

you have captured Hornsey shed perfectly something I have been unable to do.

Thanks!

 

Quote

Regarding the depth of the model  my plan was to make part/all the shed lift out including the baseboard  and track.

This would then give me access to the rear parts. 

OK.

 

Quote

hopefully by using stay alive DCC the small joints in the track would not be a problem.

OK. Check whether there's space to get big enough capacitors in the locos.

 

Quote

The shed roof was damaged during the war so there was a period of time the roof was partly open until a brand new roof was fitted,

I only mention this because I had considered modelling the shed without a roof.

That's interesting. It's a great way to see more locos.

 

Quote

The door to the garage opens out so I could extended the first part  of the baseboard to 5 Foot without a problem.

How far can you reach comfortably across, at the current baseboard level? (Without having to rest a hand on the boards.)

 

Quote

one thing that is strange the cenotaph coaler should, I believe, have a road next to it for the coal trucks to deliver the coal.

But this is not shown on the original drawing.

In the image @Flying Pig posted above there are coal wagons on the siding pointing towards the turntable.

Er, this one in red:

Isn't that siding doing the job?

 

Quote

Thank you.

regards

Dougie

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Harlequin

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Dougie,

 

Thanks for letting me have a stab at this.

 

Before I try to develop the design properly here's an almost direct tracing of Hornsey shed (c. 1954) using Peco Streamline parts, just to illustrate some of the problems:

There's no Settrack and all curves are just flexitrack. Large radius turnouts are purple, Medium are light brown, Large Ys and Curved turnouts are dark green. The smallest radii are in the two dark brown double slips.

 

You can see where I've been able to follow the real track plan closely and where I've had to deviate slightly to fit in the fixed geometry of the Streamline turnouts.

 

The problems are:

• It's nearly 5 feet wide.
• The coaling stage is obscured by the shed. (At least, the locos using it are.)
• The crane is also hidden behind the shed.
• The shed presents a side wall to the viewer. It would be nice if you could see into the entrance from more angles.
• Locos will mostly be side-on to the viewer. It would be nice to get some 3/4 angles.
• The trackwork is very dense (very expensive). Realistic but maybe too much for a model - rolling stock at the back will be hidden if there's too much going on at the front.
• It needs to be combined with a practical fiddle yard in the available space somehow.

It will take me a few days to get to grips with this.

 

 

You have, I think, drawn this with the tracks at standard streamline spacing of 50mm. Might help a bit with the width problem to reduce to 45mm.

 

Shortening the sidings between the turntable and shed and slewing the turntable roads to nearer the shed would save another six inches.

[Harlequin]

21 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

You have, I think, drawn this with the tracks at standard streamline spacing of 50mm. Might help a bit with the width problem to reduce to 45mm.

 

Shortening the sidings between the turntable and shed and slewing the turntable roads to nearer the shed would save another six inches.

Where there are crossovers I have stuck with the Streamline spacing for simplicity. It's down to 45mm in a few places where the curves are shallow and locos can safely pass.

The spacing of the shed roads is as per prototype (~54mm), where room would be needed to work on the locos and to clear the water columns. There may be some wiggle room here.

 

[LMS14B]

Good morning Harlequin

The Track you have highlighted in red just seemed to far away.

The tower is a major feature in this model due to the fact it was designed to look like a house.

The belief was it would blend in better in a residential area.

from the edge of the board 3 foot is maximum I can reach. 

if I cut out the inspection hole were the shed sits that would give me a 3 foot radius.

regards

Dougie

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Where there are crossovers I have stuck with the Streamline spacing for simplicity. It's down to 45mm in a few places where the curves are shallow and locos can safely pass.

The spacing of the shed roads is as per prototype (~54mm), where room would be needed to work on the locos and to clear the water columns. There may be some wiggle room here.

 

 

With locos, I don't think there is any danger in reducing to 45mm. Carriages are usually the problem on layouts but he has not got any.

[Joseph_Pestell]

33 minutes ago, LMS14B said:

Good morning Harlequin

The Track you have highlighted in red just seemed to far away.

The tower is a major feature in this model due to the fact it was designed to look like a house.

The belief was it would blend in better in a residential area.

from the edge of the board 3 foot is maximum I can reach. 

if I cut out the inspection hole were the shed sits that would give me a 3 foot radius.

regards

Dougie

 

I am on a ship mid-Channel with really appalling internet speeds so I can't see that photo. But a coaling tower made to look like a house has to be interesting - very Grand Designs. 

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I am on a ship mid-Channel with really appalling internet speeds so I can't see that photo. But a coaling tower made to look like a house has to be interesting - very Grand Designs. 

 

Don't get too excited - it looks like a house that looks like a coaling tower.

[RobinofLoxley]

Access is going to be a bit of a problem with 5' depth against a wall. Imagine if Harlequins plan were turned so that the siding nearest the operator ran parallel to the baseboard edge, increasing the scenic area at the back enough to create a porthole access at the rear. Its not just for derailed locos, the thing has to be built in the first place.

 

Reducing the shed roads to six may still be a reluctant compromise.

 

Dougie, if you have say 60 locos to convert to dcc with the best will in the world thats £20 per decoder if you do them all yourself. £1200 just for decoders, just saying.