Help with design

[LMS14B]

Good afternoon Harlequin

 

That's helpful information, just being pointed in the right direction makes such a difference.

its easy to get carried away with manufacture's information and end up with equipment that's not suitable.

Now, there is a cost implication but just the sheer disappointment when something doesn't work how you expected. 

Due to covid I have not been able to attend shows like everybody else.

so I am grateful to you and all the other members  who freely give there time to help others less knowledgeable.

Regards

Dougie

 

[ITG]

Mmm - point motors - a subject on its own, in my limited experience.

I started a couple of years back with Gaugemaster PM10 D and PM20D respectively for under and above board mounting. They are a combined solenoid motor and decoder, but do not have a frog power switching capability, so then I added GM frog juicers. I did have some DCC Cobalt IP motors, lovely bit of kit but sit quite deep under the board, which was not helpful in my case. They are a slow moving point motor rather than a sudden click. So early decision is slow movers (more £ but realistic) or simple solenoid (cheaper and a click)?

I also have some cheap Hattons solenoids powered by DCC Concepts ADSX units (which are best described as multiple decoder unit - various sizes) - which also include frog power switching. 
All points are controlled by DCC Concepts Alpha unit, with LED route indicator switches on a panel. No connection with DCC Concepts other than satisfied customer, but I do find their support and help is first class, even when using other manufacturers products combined with their own. And tbh, Gaugemaster are similar imho.

There may be something to be said for trying to stick with one manufacturer (ie point motor, decoder, frog power, switches, etc) if all other considerations are equal, as a single port of call can be a godsend.

Edited April 27, 2021 by ITG

[LMS14B]

Good evening ITG

Thank you for your post.

over the years I have brought nearly every model railway magazine that has been published.

I can remember reading articles  at the time thinking that's interesting but that information has slipped from my memory.

The other thing is of course things that seemed a good idea 5 years ago are probably not relevant today.

There is so much to consider were do the signals go, do I use point Roding etc .

when deep down inside I just want to run a few trains.

I know however that time spent now on setup is impotent so that there are no major disappointments later.

slow action points and a bounce on the signal is a must for me.

Now my plan is to place a single order for all the track and a single order for DCC set up.

hopefully that might lead to a small discount but more importantly a good customer service.

Regards

Dougie

 

 

[ITG]

1 hour ago, LMS14B said:

Now my plan is to place a single order for all the track and a single order for DCC set up.

In these COVID times, you may find that easier said than done. Many retailers are short of stock, as manufacturers struggle to keep pace with increased ‘lockdown’ demand whilst working in a safe manner. Good luck shopping.

[LMS14B]

Good evening ITG

yes, buying the wood for the baseboard was not straight forward, due to low stocks.

Hopefully I will make a start on the framing this coming weekend.

so in no major rush for the track just yet but it would be good to order it.

Regards

Dougie 

[PaulaDoesTrains]

21 hours ago, LMS14B said:

Good evening ITG

yes, buying the wood for the baseboard was not straight forward, due to low stocks.

Hopefully I will make a start on the framing this coming weekend.

so in no major rush for the track just yet but it would be good to order it.

Regards

Dougie 

 

From what I've heard the retailers are getting deliveries of PECO track but they have lots of pre-orders so it effectively becomes instantly out of stock. So ordering now, well before you need it, seems a sensible idea.

[LMS14B]

Good evening PaulaDoesTrains

Thank you for your post.

Yes, you are correct I did make a few calls today to find out about stock levels.

points seem to be the problem with no firm idea when they might be back in stock.

so pre-ordering seems the way forward.

Not sure if I should order a few extra in case of any last minute changes.

Regards

Dougie

[KingEdwardII]

On 27/04/2021 at 15:09, ITG said:

So early decision is slow movers (more £ but realistic) or simple solenoid (cheaper and a click)?

I recommend MTB MP1 point motors - slow moving like the Cobalts but smaller and very easy to fit under the baseboard. The MP1 motors have a built-in switch that can be used to deal with frog power. There is also the MP5 point motor available (slightly larger, also cost slightly more) that has 2 built-in switches if you have a need to switch multiple items. For DCC operation, I use the Digikeijs DR4018 accessory controller to drive the MP1s.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[JSModels]

10 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

I recommend MTB MP1 point motors - slow moving like the Cobalts but smaller and very easy to fit under the baseboard. The MP1 motors have a built-in switch that can be used to deal with frog power. There is also the MP5 point motor available (slightly larger, also cost slightly more) that has 2 built-in switches if you have a need to switch multiple items. For DCC operation, I use the Digikeijs DR4018 accessory controller to drive the MP1s.

 

Yours,  Mike.

I can second that - discovering the existence of the MP1 point motors was a lightbulb moment for me. They're brilliant little things, so low-profile and easy to install.

[Chimer]

12 hours ago, LMS14B said:

Good evening PaulaDoesTrains

Thank you for your post.

Yes, you are correct I did make a few calls today to find out about stock levels.

points seem to be the problem with no firm idea when they might be back in stock.

so pre-ordering seems the way forward.

Not sure if I should order a few extra in case of any last minute changes.

Regards

Dougie

 

Dougie

 

You're about to make a huge investment in track and point motors.  And I think from your early posts that although you've got the locos, you've never built a layout before?  I do think it might be an idea to identify a small section of the layout (perhaps the top right hand corner between the crossover and the slip), get the track required for that and see how you get on with the tracklaying and necessary wiring for the points and track power before committing yourself completely.  You might, for instance, find you just can't get on with the type of point motor you first thought of ....

 

Best of luck, whatever.

 

Chris

[Harlequin]

This is a big project and it needs to be approached stages.

 

Point motors: Yes, there are lots of options and I'm about to use MP1s on my Minories project but Dougie was asking about point motors in the fiddle yard where the requirements are that they can be surface mounted and fit in the restricted gaps between tracks without fouling rolling stock. Are there any slow moving products that meet those requirements?

 

Signalling is easy: I don't think there is any. Probably not even any ground signals. Nothing is shown on the map. Points were probably all operated by hand levers.

 

[LMS14B]

Good Morning JRB

Thank you for your post.

I have had a quick look on YouTube  and yes they have the action that I am looking For.

Regards

Dougie

 

 

[LMS14B]

Good morning Chimer

Thank you for your post.

You are correct in the fact that I have the rolling stock but theirs all ways room for a bit more.

Up to the time I left home at 15, I had a box of track and rolling stock.

This would appear most days and was set up on the lino floor at my parents home. 

15 years later I built my step son a Roundy Roundy on an 8x4 board, delivered by Farther Christmas.

His enjoyment was trying to have as many crashes as the poor old 0-6-0 could take.

so in answer to you question I have very little experience in building a proper layout, in fact none.

With the shortage of track and my lack of experience I think you suggestion is probably sound advice.

Regards

Dougie

 

 

[LMS14B]

Good morning Harlequin

Thank you for your post.

I had always consider the FY to be basic in appearance because usually its not seen.

Mine will be on full show, so why not decorate it?

Because both areas are stabling points, to make it look realistic I need to replecate years of dropped ash, cinders and coal.

so probably 70% of the sleepers will not be seen.

with this in mind, I will need to make sure the point motors will fit and operate correctly.

I will do a test area, firstly to see if what's in my head can be modelled with my skill set.

Regards

Dougie

 

 

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, LMS14B said:

Good morning Harlequin

Thank you for your post.

I had always consider the FY to be basic in appearance because usually its not seen.

Mine will be on full show, so why not decorate it?

Because both areas are stabling points, to make it look realistic I need to replecate years of dropped ash, cinders and coal.

so probably 70% of the sleepers will not be seen.

with this in mind, I will need to make sure the point motors will fit and operate correctly.

I will do a test area, firstly to see if what's in my head can be modelled with my skill set.

Regards

Dougie

 

 

That gives you a lot more work to do and makes things a bit more difficult and more costly. I wouldn't bother - certainly not until the proper scene is well-developed, which will take a lot of time and effort.

 

Sensible fiddle yards are usually seen. By definition you need to be able to fiddle in them...

 

A hidden storage yard (not a fiddle yard) needs a lot more infrastructure than a simple open fiddle yard. Some or all of: special access for emergencies, cameras to see what's in there, fully motorised point control, occupancy detection.

 

My preference is for the FY to be open and not scenic so that it's easy to access and so there's a clear distinction between the "stage" where things are intended to look and work as realistically as possible, and the "off-stage", where the hand of God is allowed to intervene and do the things that can't be done realistically on-stage.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Harlequin

[LMS14B]

Good afternoon Harlequin.

 

You are probably correct, I am just over thinking things.

Its a release of 50 years of ideas pouring out in one go. (Kid in the sweet shop)

But I don't want to miss out on anything because of lack of thought, ending up with a load of IF ONLY.

I am sure once  building starts the daydreams will stop or not be so frequent.

Thank you for keeping me on the straight and narrow.

Regards

Dougie

 

[LMS14B]

Good evening.

I am just about to place my order for Peco 100 track.

A certain amount of doubt has crept into my mind whether i should be using Insulfrog or Electrofrog turnouts.

The plan is to use DCC so that some of the operations can be automated.

On reading some of the post there seems to be a problem when using a crossing and a turnout.

The fish plates may need to be of an isolating type to overcome this problem.

My limited knowledge assumed that with DCC the whole track was live, so use Electrofrogs.

but now i am not certain if I should use all the same type or a mixture of both. Help.

Regards

Dougie

[KingEdwardII]

My recommendation: use Electrofrogs everywhere. You will get smoother running with no stalling on turnouts.

 

Downsides: you need to power the frogs appropriately. Either a switch associated with the movement of the turnout (e.g. using point motors with inbuilt switches, like the MTB MP1 & Cobalt motors) or else a specialized frog juicer. Personally, I use the inbuilt switches.

 

Diamond crossings in Peco 100 track are a problem in that they are only available as Insulfrog - Peco 75 track does have electrofrog diamond crossings. It is wise to control the polarity of the various rails on the diamond crossing in either case, typically from the turnouts that control the routes over the diamond crossing, since otherwise you can get shorts as loco wheels touch different rail sections.

 

One tip is to ensure that the turnouts and crossings are laid perfectly level - if they are not level, then loco wheels can lose contact as they traverse and you may get stalling. Fitting DCC locos with stay-alives can help deal with any stalling issues.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[ITG]

Dougie,

my earlier post about point motors referred to frog power, which assumed you would be using electro frogs. I started with insulfrogs not knowing any better, but much better running with modified (and with frog power) electro frogs.

Whilst other folk will no doubt vouch for their positive experience with dead frogs, my strong recommendation is go for electrofrog. Others before you will have found the solution for dead frog diamond crossings.

[Harlequin]

Electrofrog definitely. The plastic frogs on Insulfrog look ugly, cause stalls and they will wear down eventually. Electrofrogs need a bit more preparation than Insulfrogs if you are going to switch the frog using an external switch and there's a related modification you can do to them to make the blades have a more reliable electrical connection.

 

Did you mean crossover rather than crossing?

 

With Electrofrog turnouts you have to use insulating joiners in places, simply because the frog, and the V rails connected to it, change "polarity" when the turnout route is changed. So where you are trying to keep all the tracks live there would be a short along one rail or the other unless the insulating joiner is used.

 

[LMS14B]

Good Morning KingEdwardII

Thank you for your post.

you have confirmed my first thoughts regarding Electrofrogs

I am looking at the possibility of fitting Stay-alive.

But I need to make sure there is a enough room to fit the capacitor in locomotives a long with the other DCC related bits.

kind regards

Dougie

 

[LMS14B]

Good morning ITG

Thank you for you post.

You assumed correctly my plan was always to use Electrofrogs.

Just as I was about to place my order for the track I saw a couple of post regarding short circuits.

Anyway the track order is in and I am sticking with the Electrofrogs.

Regards

Dougie

 

 

[LMS14B]

Good morning Harlequin

Thank you for your post.

The orders have now been placed for the track and I am happy to report its Electrofrogs all the way.

 My next job is to work out were to fit the insulating fish plates to avoid the those pesky shorts.

Regards

Dougie

 

[burtos]

3 hours ago, LMS14B said:

Good morning Harlequin

Thank you for your post.

The orders have now been placed for the track and I am happy to report its Electrofrogs all the way.

 My next job is to work out were to fit the insulating fish plates to avoid the those pesky shorts.

Regards

Dougie

 

This may help you out 

 

https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Electrofrog

[LMS14B]

Good afternoon burtos

Thank you for your post.

That's really helpful and makes a lot of sense. there seems to be so many things I have not considered or even thought about.

hopefully I will be able to use some of this newly gained knowledge to help others at a later date.

Regards

Dougie