Where is this Midland signal box?

[Compound2632]

Any ideas where this slightly non-standard Midland signal box was, c. 1900 - it's 30' x 15', made of 15' panels rather than the more common 10':

 

[Edwin_m]

Post deleted

Edited April 11, 2021 by Edwin_m

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

That link goes to a thread with 141 posts over about six pages.  If you go to the post in question and click on the three dots and "Share", this creates a link to the specific post.  

 

That is what I have done. The way these links work is that you have to click in the shaded box at the top, with the arrow pointing NE in the black box. That takes you directly to the post in question. 

 

If you click below that, you are taken to the first post of the topic, which you will find is 141 pages long, not 141 posts!

 

Maybe clunky, but that's how it works.

[Edwin_m]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That is what I have done. The way these links work is that you have to click in the shaded box at the top, with the arrow pointing NE in the black box. That takes you directly to the post in question. 

 

If you click below that, you are taken to the first post of the topic, which you will find is 141 pages long, not 141 posts!

 

Maybe clunky, but that's how it works.

Apologies, I missed that subtlety!  

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

Apologies, I missed that subtlety!  

 

Any idea where the 'box is, though?

[Edwin_m]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Any idea where the 'box is, though?

Sorry no, but I don't think the background would match Harpenden.  It has a long straight to the south and while there is a right hand curve to the north as in the picture, if you can see the curve you would probably also see a footbridge.  

 

Also, if this was looking north from Harpenden, there would probably be some evidence of the bay platform that was on the west side in MR days.  If its track was behind the camera then the signal visible to left would probably be behind the camera too.  

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/harpenden_central/

Edited April 11, 2021 by Edwin_m

[Blandford1969]

Possibly Bedford South heading north.

[The Stationmaster]

Try Kettering Junction - lots of similarities track layout wise and with the signal box in relation to the double junction but of course places changed over the years.

[Compound2632]

Working on those suggestions. Identification isn't helped by the replacement of quite a number of boxes on the MML by LMS standard types (derived from LNWR types).

 

@The Stationmaster's suggestion of Kettering Junction sent me looking at the OS 25" maps of Kettering. From the 1899 survey, I think Kettering North SB looks to be a good fit, though I haven't found a photo. If we're looking north, it has the right combination of being on an embankment with a bridge in the foreground (over the Northampton Road), siding ending just short of the box, double junction between the slow and fast lines (the train is on the up fast) with trailing crossover between the fast lines in the foreground and trailing connections into the engine shed yard on the right. 

 

So thanks - its a bit of pot-luck being directed in roughly the right direction, rather than laboriously inspecting every signal box on the 25" map!

[Clive Mortimore]

3 hours ago, Blandford1969 said:

Possibly Bedford South heading north.

Hi Duncan

 

Bedford South was one of those odd few non standard boxes the MR had. It was similar to the back to back box at St Pancras as it was double width and contained two frames, one for the fast lines and one for the slow lines which it sat between but unlike St Pnacras it had a one piece roof, a very wide one by MR standards.

 

Usually oddities abound on the interwebthingy. I cannot find a photo of it. Goodness knows how many times I went past it was a kid, both on the railway and rowing on the river. Like many things it seemed it was there forever and then just gone.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Clive Mortimore

[Compound2632]

Bedford South - assuming it to be the box next to the bridge over the Ouse, near the boat house - looks very square on the map. The topography is all wrong for the one in the photo, anyway.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Bedford South - assuming it to be the box next to the bridge over the Ouse, near the boat house - looks very square on the map. The topography is all wrong for the one in the photo, anyway.

Hi Stephen

 

Yes, the box in the middle of the two running lines before they cross the Ouse over Twin Bridges. There was another box a bit further up stream just before the original mainline crossed Hitchin Bridge called Ouse Bridge box.  Which has been known to cause confusion.

[The Stationmaster]

On 11/04/2021 at 13:28, Compound2632 said:

Working on those suggestions. Identification isn't helped by the replacement of quite a number of boxes on the MML by LMS standard types (derived from LNWR types).

 

@The Stationmaster's suggestion of Kettering Junction sent me looking at the OS 25" maps of Kettering. From the 1899 survey, I think Kettering North SB looks to be a good fit, though I haven't found a photo. If we're looking north, it has the right combination of being on an embankment with a bridge in the foreground (over the Northampton Road), siding ending just short of the box, double junction between the slow and fast lines (the train is on the up fast) with trailing crossover between the fast lines in the foreground and trailing connections into the engine shed yard on the right. 

 

So thanks - its a bit of pot-luck being directed in roughly the right direction, rather than laboriously inspecting every signal box on the 25" map!

Kettering North is a signal post and a crossover adrift from the situation in the photo but the 'box position looks better than Kettering Junction as does the stop block.  And of course changes were no doubt made over the years.  But overall the layout and 'box position best matches the  Kettering vicinity rather than anywhere else on the quadruple track section at the London end of the MML.

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Kettering North is a signal post and a crossover adrift from the situation in the photo 

 

Do you think so?

 

The signal post behind the first van, for the junction from the up slow to the up fast, and the signal post in the left foreground, junction from down fast to down slow, are both marked SP on the map, thought the latter is obscured by the shading of the embankment. I suggest that the other signal post shown, on the down side opposite the up slow - up fast bracket, is directly behind the down fast - down slow signal. I think its the signal for the up fast, protecting the junction crossovers, placed on the off-side for better sighting round the curve. In fact I think we can see the spectacle plates sticking out to the left of the foreground post and the ends of the arms to the right - it's a stop signal with distant under and of course both are off for the meat train:

 

 

I think all the pointwork on the map is in the photo (or vice-versa), with the trailing crossover between the fast lines in the foreground. 

 

Or have I missed one? The camera produces considerable foreshortening. The train is about 400 ft long - 17 meat vans 19'6" over buffers, brake van a little bit shorter, engine and tender about 50 ft - which, using the scale on the map, is about the same as the distance between the two visible signal posts.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwin_m]

This photo shows that Kettering North was wider than usual (in the direction perpendicular to the tracks) and had, I think, the same unusual arrangement of locking room windows - although it shows the other end.  

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8022462618/

Edited April 12, 2021 by Edwin_m

[The Stationmaster]

28 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Do you think so?

 

The signal post behind the first van, for the junction from the up slow to the up fast, and the signal post in the left foreground, junction from down fast to down slow, are both marked SP on the map, thought the latter is obscured by the shading of the embankment. I suggest that the other signal post shown, on the down side opposite the up slow - up fast bracket, is directly behind the down fast - down slow signal. I think its the signal for the up fast, protecting the junction crossovers, placed on the off-side for better sighting round the curve. In fact I think we can see the spectacle plates sticking out to the left of the foreground post and the ends of the arms to the right - it's a stop signal with distant under and of course both are off for the meat train:

 

 

I think all the pointwork on the map is in the photo (or vice-versa), with the trailing crossover between the fast lines in the foreground. 

 

Or have I missed one? The camera produces considerable foreshortening. The train is about 400 ft long - 17 meat vans 19'6" over buffers, brake van a little bit shorter, engine and tender about 50 ft - which, using the scale on the map, is about the same as the distance between the two visible signal posts.

It might on the OS Map but it doesn't match the signal box diagram.  I tend not to take much notice of signal positions on OS maps as they have a habit of being rarely revised and frequently being highly misleading and the same can often be said of track layouts.  Signal box diagrams, while in many cases lacking distances do at least have a habit of showing signals in the right position in relation to pointwork,  hence my comment 

 

but equaly of course thinsg were moved over the years and without exact dates of revsions for any pictorial represeentation we might not know exactly what date it corresponds with.

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It might on the OS Map but it doesn't match the signal box diagram.  I tend not to take much notice of signal positions on OS maps as they have a habit of being rarely revised and frequently being highly misleading and the same can often be said of track layouts.  Signal box diagrams, while in many cases lacking distances do at least have a habit of showing signals in the right position in relation to pointwork,  hence my comment 

 

but equaly of course thinsg were moved over the years and without exact dates of revsions for any pictorial represeentation we might not know exactly what date it corresponds with.

 

I think I hadn't said here that the photo can be dated to 1899-1902 by the type of meat vans in the train and the pre-1903 headcode and lamp-irons on the engine. I would imagine that any signal box diagram you have is of considerably later date? The Midland was rather fond of wrong-side signals where they gave better sighting; such eccentricities I think tended to get ironed out in LMS resignalling schemes. 

 

Someone with access to Gough's Chronology of the Midland Railway can probably give dates for the signal box in the photo.

[Edwin_m]

There's a signal box diagram at the link below, but only from 1960:

 

https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagram.php?id= 205

 

Is this the one @Stationmaster is referring to?  It seems a very close match to what's visible the photo, and as I pointed out above the box shares a couple of peculiarities with the identifiable photo I linked.  I think that should be enough to satisfy the jury.  

[Clive Mortimore]

Gough's Chronology of the Midland Railway states Kettering North double junction DFL-DFL, USL-UFL into use 17-4-1898, taken out of use 19-11-1967.

Kettering North Signal Box, replacement box, opened 20-2-1898 closed 19-11-1967. The style of box with the deep front window and shallow end windows fits this time frame of it coming into use.

 

The 1901 OS map (from the Middleton Press book Wellingborough to Leicester shows a signal post in the same place as the one in the foreground. 

 

The signal box diagram as drawn by John Swift from the Signalling Record Society does not show this signal but a junction signal further south just after the platform end.

From their web site 

 

At some point in time the junction signal must have been repositioned as the frame is a 38 lever, with only one spare lever,  and there is no mention of it being reframed in the Gough's book.

 

In the link Edwin has shared there are question marks regarding levers 8 and 9, they were for detonators.

 

Looking on Old Maps the 1900 OS map shows the signal, the 1926 map and the 1967 do not show this signal. All three have a signal in the position as in the signalling diagrams. Looking at the photo there are signal wires going towards the station. Could the signal post in the photo or the one at the platform end been a repeater for the other? If so that would indicate why there were no changes to the lever frame. A photo dated 1962 in a book called Midland Line Memories  shows the north end of the station, the signals are still MR lower quadrant.

[beast66606]

[beast66606]

[beast66606]

Looks a good match to me, Kettering North.

[Compound2632]

Thanks to all especially @Edwin_m and @beast66606, I think that pretty convincingly nails it. I note that in the John Hinson diagram and in the last BR period photo, the up fast home No. 30 is still on the offside, for sighting round the bend. I had thought that the position of the junction signals 2 / 6 after the fast lines trailing crossover was a bit odd; not surprising this was moved further south.

 

@Clive Mortimore, thanks for the dates from Gough - that fits nicely with the 'not before 1899' date from the presence of D374 refrigerator meat vans in the train. The box and signaling is nearly new.

 

Quite a difference in fitted freights there - 17 similar meat vans, compared to a mish-mash of LMS and LNER designs, no two the same. No wonder modelling the 50s is so popular!