Steamport Southport Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 Got to be careful as quite a few mentioned aren't really shunters, just small. Or far away.... Many were totally useless for the job such as Terriers which were mainly passenger tanks. But shop around as they are less than £70 in some places. And not all shunters were small. These were built as shunters in marshalling yards. Ben Brooksbank John of Paris? Both from Wiki The cure? Things like this normally works for me... Jason 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted April 12, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 12, 2021 The better 'proper railway' term in shunting engine; a shunter is a member of staff who couples and uncouples trains. Steam shunting engines have particular attributes irrespective of size; steam or at least lever reverse, good visibility (look at the sloping tank tops on the H15 and Z in the photos) so that the shunter on the front steps can be seen from the cab. There were not all that many of them, and very few were 0-6-0 tank locos; they tended to be big beasts like these, and some GCR and NER types built for hump yard work, or very small, 4-coupled pugs or industrials that had come into mainline railway use like the Swansea Docks locos. The 0-6-0s were mostly built for local trip freight and even passenger work, but were the go to for pilot duties, yard and station, which mostly involved shunting of course. They had lever reverse; screw reverse would have exhausted most drivers on pilot work. So, we think of them as shunting engines; as a child I would have described a 57xx as a shunter. Bit of a culture shock, then, when my dad took me on a Newport-Brecon and return run in 1962 just before the service was axed; I was 10 years old and here was what I thought of as a 'shunter' hauling gangwayed corridor coaches as fast as it could on a journey of over 2 hours duration (you could get to Paddington quicker from Newport in those days), crossing a moderately serious mountain range in the process, a world whose existence I was unaware of. I regard the J50 as a sort of halfway design, with sloping tanks for visibility of staff riding on the front steps, but having a long wheelbase rendering it suitable for local passenger or transfer freight work. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 52 minutes ago, The Johnster said: I regard the J50 as a sort of halfway design, with sloping tanks for visibility of staff riding on the front steps, but having a long wheelbase rendering it suitable for local passenger or transfer freight work. I'm not aware they did much of that , though I think they were used on Snow Hill transfer work The Q1 rebuilds (one of Thompson's ideas, though a wartime expedient) were tried out on trip working in South Yorks and proved unsuitable - the one place where they found a real niche was Scunthorpe, where the traffic was heavy (in both senses) and shunting work was a struggle for J50s and J94s [ Not quite off topic - the Q1s comprised modified salvageable portions of ex GC 0-8-0 locos along with tanks cabs etc from a cancelled batch of J50s ) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 (edited) I have a Boxfile to declare Whitefriargate Goods Which serves as a cast-iron reason to buy lots of shunters. Not to mention wagons. Having succumbed to a Silver Fox 05 and Hunslet tram, recycled a Knightwing diesel , and built a NuCast Y3 (honourary diesel) , I have surrendered to the dark side and started buying RTR and kettles - Hornby Peckett and Ruston 48DS, Hattons Barclay.... I ask for two Judith Edge Sentinels (unbuilt) , a Craftsman 02 (unbuilt) a partbuilt Branchlines chassis for an 04 and an untouched second-hand Stephen Poole kit for a Y5 to be taken into consideration when sentencing, m'lud No loco can be too small for the Boxfile - an 08 is overpowering (which is why my Bachmann one has lurked in its box for years, along with a vintage Bachman 03.. ) Did I mention the J50 and the GBL Jinty body + Hornby 0-6-0 chassis... Edited April 12, 2021 by Ravenser To remove a chimerical U5 - the mind boggles at what that might have been.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted April 12, 2021 Author Share Posted April 12, 2021 To say “it has all been done before” is, in some ways, true. With limitations on size, there can only be so many permutations of track plan that will fit, further limited by using commercially available points. When I started Woodhey Quay, it started as a very curvy Inglenook sidings, but with playing sorry development over time, it gradually evolved into a plan which ended up exactly the same as Bleat Wharf and Sheep Dip - albeit with tighter points! Of course, that became Castlebrook Sidings and having a loop meant I could shunt with a waybill system or operate as an Inglenook. The most recent changes though, thanks to following @Ighten’s layout thread, has seen them become a set of exchange sidings. It may not be stunningly original in concept, but it will need to be operated in a way different from either the traditional Inglenook or Timesaver plans. I’m sure you’ve seen it @Paul H Vigor but if not take a look at The Shunting Puzzles Website, which goes into gaming theory in some depth, including the maths behind the Inglenook puzzle. In a way it actually shows why certain plans keep being used again and again - they work and they provide a challenge! You are also right about designs being influenced by commercially available points - my own Blackford Wharf has undergone changes purely because commercial track doesn’t always fit how I might expect! I also take your point about some layouts having intricate and convoluted hand built point formations - but surely that is how access in cramped locations was solved in reality? I think originality is sought through setting, be it based upon a prototype or totally freelance in character. One of the most original layouts on the Gn15 forum (IMHO) is a simple shunting layout set inside a factory, rather than outside serving it. Whatever you do, enjoy whatever you do! HOURS OF FUN! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted April 12, 2021 Author Share Posted April 12, 2021 I’m a shunterholic (I like shunting) and am addicted to shunting locos... No, of course I didn’t buy a MSC sentinel 0-4-0 earlier ... Oh, go on then, I did! It joins my Evans & Crossley sentinel, and ‘Graham’ ... Mitigating circumstances, M’Lud - surely it counts as a dock loco?! And it’s local... RESISTANCE IS FUTILE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Vigor Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 22 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said: To say “it has all been done before” is, in some ways, true. With limitations on size, there can only be so many permutations of track plan that will fit, further limited by using commercially available points. When I started Woodhey Quay, it started as a very curvy Inglenook sidings, but with playing sorry development over time, it gradually evolved into a plan which ended up exactly the same as Bleat Wharf and Sheep Dip - albeit with tighter points! Of course, that became Castlebrook Sidings and having a loop meant I could shunt with a waybill system or operate as an Inglenook. The most recent changes though, thanks to following @Ighten’s layout thread, has seen them become a set of exchange sidings. It may not be stunningly original in concept, but it will need to be operated in a way different from either the traditional Inglenook or Timesaver plans. I’m sure you’ve seen it @Paul H Vigor but if not take a look at The Shunting Puzzles Website, which goes into gaming theory in some depth, including the maths behind the Inglenook puzzle. In a way it actually shows why certain plans keep being used again and again - they work and they provide a challenge! You are also right about designs being influenced by commercially available points - my own Blackford Wharf has undergone changes purely because commercial track doesn’t always fit how I might expect! I also take your point about some layouts having intricate and convoluted hand built point formations - but surely that is how access in cramped locations was solved in reality? I think originality is sought through setting, be it based upon a prototype or totally freelance in character. One of the most original layouts on the Gn15 forum (IMHO) is a simple shunting layout set inside a factory, rather than outside serving it. Whatever you do, enjoy whatever you do! HOURS OF FUN! I would like to try and model something original, or model something in an original way - if you get my drift? As you say, a novel setting could be the way to go? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Ravenser said: Having succumbed to a Silver Fox 05 and Hunslet tram I was watching them the other day and they suddenly disappeared without trace. Or somebody bought them all... Want one to go with the Model Rail J70s. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silver-Fox-BR-Hunslet-0-4-0-Dock-Shunter-Kit-/203293993197?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=BcQJQ6powgkVRy6Oo2TGjoHT2a0%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc I'm pretty new to this small loco thing. It's always been larger layouts, but having got a few smaller engines I've realised they don't fit in with mainline engines. Anything smaller than a Pannier looks wrong. So yes. I'll be having a small layout with a few industrials and small tanks and diesels. Just as an excuse to run them occasionally. It'll be a while before anything happens though. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said: I was watching them the other day and they suddenly disappeared without trace. Or somebody bought them all... Want one to go with the Model Rail J70s. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silver-Fox-BR-Hunslet-0-4-0-Dock-Shunter-Kit-/203293993197?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=BcQJQ6powgkVRy6Oo2TGjoHT2a0%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc I'm pretty new to this small loco thing. It's always been larger layouts, but having got a few smaller engines I've realised they don't fit in with mainline engines. Anything smaller than a Pannier looks wrong. So yes. I'll be having a small layout with a few industrials and small tanks and diesels. Just as an excuse to run them occasionally. It'll be a while before anything happens though. Jason It wasn't me , guv, honest. I've had mine about 15 years.... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted April 12, 2021 Author Share Posted April 12, 2021 10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: Got to be careful as quite a few mentioned aren't really shunters, just small. Or far away.... Many were totally useless for the job such as Terriers which were mainly passenger tanks. But shop around as they are less than £70 in some places. And not all shunters were small. These were built as shunters in marshalling yards. Ben Brooksbank John of Paris? Both from Wiki The cure? Things like this normally works for me... Jason Thanks @Steamport Southport - now I really want the loco pictured at the top! That would probably fill my entire micro!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted April 12, 2021 Author Share Posted April 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said: I would like to try and model something original, or model something in an original way - if you get my drift? As you say, a novel setting could be the way to go? Definitely look at the Shunting Puzzles website - somebody created one in Lego as an abstract concept! How much more novel can you get? Couple of novel ideas, fresh from having driven through far too many roadworks back from my sisters (3 hours instead of just over 2 hours - so many flashing lights!!) 1) MoD shunting puzzle, with ammo/explosive wagons - pinching the Triang idea, the wagons could be set to ‘explode’ after a certain amount of time if the puzzle is not completed. 2) How about an S scale model, with trained live mice as the motive power? (After all, miniature horses are really difficult) Better still, using kittens? Everybody loves kittens and toy trains - a sure fire winner at exhibitions for the young family demographic! 3) Twilight Zone Shunting Puzzle - utilising steel track and Magnahesion, an all black loco and trucks in totally black scenery is presented upside down on the underside of the roof of your layout presentation box, with a mirror angled below on the base to be able to observe movements, and the controller wired via a motorised randomised polarity switch so that the operator is never quite sure what direction the loco will move (DC only, of course) As the loco cannot be sound fitted, a continuous recording of BR station announcements played backwards is provided as a soundtrack to further disorientate the viewer. If took to an exhibition, the public could be invited to attempt to complete the puzzle after circling quickly 42 times in a tight clockwise direction whilst holding a broom... I’m here all week... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted April 12, 2021 Author Share Posted April 12, 2021 39 minutes ago, Ravenser said: It wasn't me , guv, honest. I've had mine about 15 years.... Aaaawwww! I want one of those now, too!! The bonnet on the Bachmann Junior diesel looks very similar, but the cab looks more Drewery class 04 ... maybe a cheap bash into something like? MUST resist the Heljan 05 - just a touch too expensive to be hacking the cab about and covering up the motion with tramway skirts! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Vigor Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 1 minute ago, SteveyDee68 said: Definitely look at the Shunting Puzzles website - somebody created one in Lego as an abstract concept! How much more novel can you get? Couple of novel ideas, fresh from having driven through far too many roadworks back from my sisters (3 hours instead of just over 2 hours - so many flashing lights!!) 1) MoD shunting puzzle, with ammo/explosive wagons - pinching the Triang idea, the wagons could be set to ‘explode’ after a certain amount of time if the puzzle is not completed. 2) How about an S scale model, with trained live mice as the motive power? (After all, miniature horses are really difficult) Better still, using kittens? Everybody loves kittens and toy trains - a sure fire winner at exhibitions for the young family demographic! 3) Twilight Zone Shunting Puzzle - utilising steel track and Magnahesion, an all black loco and trucks in totally black scenery is presented upside down on the underside of the roof of your layout presentation box, with a mirror angled below on the base to be able to observe movements, and the controller wired via a motorised randomised polarity switch so that the operator is never quite sure what direction the loco will move (DC only, of course) As the loco cannot be sound fitted, a continuous recording of BR station announcements played backwards is provided as a soundtrack to further disorientate the viewer. If took to an exhibition, the public could be invited to attempt to complete the puzzle after circling quickly 42 times in a tight clockwise direction whilst holding a broom... I’m here all week... Thought about a shunting scenario in space - in a vacuum and everything weightless! One benefit: when it all goes wrong, in space no one can hear you scream! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted April 12, 2021 Author Share Posted April 12, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said: I would like to try and model something original, or model something in an original way - if you get my drift? As you say, a novel setting could be the way to go? Actually, I keep looking on eBay for the necessaries to create a simple Inglenook using Big Big Train diesel loco and V skip wagons... We had them when I was a kid (plus a Hymek that my dad started converting) ... why were they thrown away?! Big, chunky, battery powered - I’d look to put radio control into the loco. Each skip wagon a nice bright colour. Use Halford spray paint to tone down the bright red track... Lightweight foam board baseboard... I need to stop talking ... I’m talking myself into it!! Steve S UPDATE Now was not the time to discover www.hglw.co.uk! Edited April 13, 2021 by SteveyDee68 Narrow gauge website link 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Hi all, Here is my latest freelance shunter. For those tight little layouts and harbours. This is the illegitimate offspring of the meeting of a Pug and Crab......lol . Plus being a shunterholic is only a small part of the model railway illness. It is when you get 300+ loco's that you really need to start worrying and SWMBO starts getting a bit cross about the space all the boxes are taking up....lol 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davknigh Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 When you sit down and think about it, the attraction of shunting is that you can have realistic operation in the space normally allowed to the average mortal. I mean sure, an A4, or a King or a Merchant Navy with 10 on looks just grand but only if you have the space and can ignore the fact that stations would still be less than a scale mile apart. But a pug and a rake of 10 wagons will fit easily into an 8’ point to point with room to spare and that’s not including the wagons already on the layout spotted around in sidings. I was introduced to shunting, or switching as we call it over here, on North American layouts which also had the benefit of Kadee couplers on all stock which looked the part and also allowed remote dropping and pickup plus smooth operating locos. Early on in my return to British outline I discovered HighLevel gear boxes and Dingham couplings which produced the same experience for me as I had enjoyed back in the days when I started. Cheers, David 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirty2a Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 oh thank goodness, i realize i'm not the only addict, my name is Tony and I am a shunting addict and yes I have small loco's and an O gauge boxfile layout. right, where did I leave that Y6 and rake of open minerals... 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) Tick what you have from this list 01 02 03 x 04 x 05 x 06 07 08 x 09 10 11 12 13 Hudswell Clarke early 060 Hudswell Clarke late 060 Hunslet 040 R&H 040 R&H PWM650 x R&H PWM651-4 R&H DS20 Brush D2999 NBL 3 classes of 040 DH shunters 22 classes minimum for BR shunters, I only have 5 of them. And I will haev to add the LMS SR LNER and GWR Diesels later Edited April 13, 2021 by MJI 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 18 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said: I would like to try and model something original, or model something in an original way - if you get my drift? As you say, a novel setting could be the way to go? People seem to want to create a lot of terminal points, where goods were loaded or unloaded, factory yards, that sort of thing, but serious, hard-core shunting was more a marshalling-yard thing, so why not build a small set of sorting sidings. One of the really big yards might be a tad ambitious unless you have a vacant gymnasium, but there were local sorting points, often where a couple of branches connected with a main line, three or five sidings, a reception road and a head-shunt. break-down a cut dropped by a passing main-line goods, and resort it into convenient order for each branch, then do the reverse, getting the outgoing cut ready later. That way, you can just have track on an "ironing board". The only structure needed might be a hut for the shunters to brew-up in, maybe add a water column and a tiny coaling stage until you get a diesel, then you can get rid of them too. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Hi all, Well for the ultimate shunting I love Ronald Dodds hump shunting part of his layout. It works brilliantly and looks like loads of fun. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted April 15, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 15, 2021 On 13/04/2021 at 16:39, Nearholmer said: People seem to want to create a lot of terminal points, where goods were loaded or unloaded, factory yards, that sort of thing, but serious, hard-core shunting was more a marshalling-yard thing, so why not build a small set of sorting sidings. One of the really big yards might be a tad ambitious unless you have a vacant gymnasium, but there were local sorting points, often where a couple of branches connected with a main line, three or five sidings, a reception road and a head-shunt. break-down a cut dropped by a passing main-line goods, and resort it into convenient order for each branch, then do the reverse, getting the outgoing cut ready later. That way, you can just have track on an "ironing board". The only structure needed might be a hut for the shunters to brew-up in, maybe add a water column and a tiny coaling stage until you get a diesel, then you can get rid of them too. Two huts, one for the shunters and one for the wagon examiners at the larger yards. This sort of yard is difficult to model accurately in terms of operation, though, as shunting included uncoupling wagons on the move, at which point the loco would stop and reverse while the uncoupled wagon(s) freewheeled into their intended siding, being braked manually by a shunter with a brake stick while still in motion. Marshalling yard shunting is a job for a fit and agile man who needs to keep his wits about him; many accidents took place in this environment and don’t forget it often took place 24/7 in all weathers. Water column is a possibility but a coaling stage would be unusual; a loco coming off shed for a yard pilot duty with a full bunker will have more than enough for the day’s work until she is relieved by another loco. It is no coincidence the the first large scale use of diesels in the UK was of 350hp yard shunting locos that could be topped up with diesel, coolant, and lubricant at the yard and work continuously without needing relief until shed attention was needed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 Yes, it all depends upon how big this yard is to be .......... I was thinking of something manageable, so not a great number of roads, and probably, therefore, not taking more than a couple of hours to shunt, maybe two lots of a couple of hours a day. That wouldn't merit a coaling facility, maybe not water, and very unlikely an examiners' hut. This business of loose shunting really ought to be reproduced in model form. maybe just tilt the whole model sufficiently to allow wagons to roll gently towards the stops. I only ever got to see this in action at one place, Redhill, where there was a view of a mini sorting facility from the station platform, and it was fascinating. At all the places I had call to work, shunting was done coupled-up, but even then it sometimes didn't go too well, like the day a rake of parcels vans arrived into the workshop, unannounced, through a firmly closed roller-shutter door. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted April 15, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 15, 2021 There is shunting and then there's shunting. The sort of goods yard or loading/unloading facility shunting that we mostly do on model railways can be correctly represented with the wagons being coupled to the loco until they are positioned, because they had to be spot positioned in reality and speeds were low because of staff working in the area (not necessarily railway staff in the case of mileage and coal sidings), and extreme caution was needed propelling vehicles into goods sheds because the line of sight from the loco cab is compromsed; movements are under the direction of ground staff and at small goods yards this may well consist of the guard alone, so there is no opportunity for handsignals to be transferred via banksmen. In a marshalling yard, flat or hump, things are much more extrovert and knockabout, some speed being needed to fire loose shunted wagons to the other end of long sidings. A 'modern' 50s/60s hump yard has retarders operated by computer, compressed air, and radar in the case of Margam, to control the speed of wagons as they enter the sorting sidings, but even then bangs and bumps were a daily occurrence; Severn Tunnel down side seemed particularly prone but that may be a function of the traincrew messroom being within earshot in the 70s and my awareness of goings on 'informed' by this. A loaded wagon contacting a rake that is secured with handbrakes at a speed of around 25 mph makes a very satisfying bang, enough to generate ripples in your cup of tea, and generates a decent cloud of brown rust dust, but this is a spectator sport best enjoyed from a suitable distance... In a flat yard, speeds are a bit lower but it's still pretty vigorous and rough'n'tumble. A marahally yard in which wagons are being sent loose is an unpredictable and dangerous place to be, especially if you are a guard examining your train in between rows of wagons close to you on each shoulder and liable to move without warning. If you need dissuading from diving between wagons as a short cut, classic Darwin award activity, this is a good place to learn better practice. A place like the yard throat at Radyr, Junction end, where cuts of loaded coal wagons are being thrown at you in an apparently random fashion fast enough to make it to Quarry half a mile away, is proper scary, and Swansea High Street Goods, where vehicles came flying down the bank from Hafod around the blind corner of the High Street NCL shed building was straight up terrifying, especially on a foul winter night when the sound of them approaching was obscured by the gale and visibility compromised by heavy rain! Fun... The problem in modelling this is shown by the video of Ronald Dodds' layout, huge fun and realistic operation but of course far too fast; his cuts are dropping into the sorting sidings at scale 60 or 70mph. This is because momentum doesn't scale down, and wagons need to be heavily ballasted and very free running to behave like real ones in this situation, as well as requiring automatic uncoupling in motion. A real wagon released on a hump accelerates rapidly under gravity, but not as instantaneously as RD's fly off. In a flat yard, the loco and vehicles coupled to it slow down and stop while the released cut continues at the same speed until a bang is heard as it reaches the next wagon in the siding, possibly followed by further clanks as it hits loose wagons up into those braked at the other end or on stop blocks. You will notice that stop blocks are not fishplated to the adjoining rails; this is so that if something comes into heavy contact the blocks will be pushed back as shock absorbers rather than wagons piling up on top of them. What we are asking for is not a small ask; wagons that can be released at about a scale 15mph that will roll freely for the required distance and come to a smooth stop without bouncing back when they contact other vehicles; in other words we need to replicate the shunter with a brake stick at the recieving end. This probably involves push button electro-magnetic retarders at intervals along the sorting sidings and magnets beneath the wagons, and some skill in operation (fair enough, some skill is required in the real operation we are attempting to relpicate). But if it can be successfully done, a single ended flat marshalling yard with a reception road accessible from both ends for incoming trains that can be broken down into cuts for remarshalling into new trains, with a main line and passing traffic in the background, would be a very satisfying layout to operate, with effectively an infinite variety of moves even into a quite a small number of roads. Real examples to base such a layout on might be something like Long Dyke, Crwys Sidings, or Senghenydd Road Sidings in Cardiff; you will have examples in your own areas I'm sure. The latter two were coal sorting yards, where coal wagons from different collieries were remarshalled to be tripped on to the docks for loading specific mixtures of coal to customers' specifications into the ships. It's not just black rock, you know... Crwys, from the steps on the side leading to the Crwys Road bridge, was a favourite spot in my childhood, a 94xx making up trains to trip to East Dock, having spent hours apparently pointlessly shuffling what appeared to be identical loaded mineral wagon cards back and forth, and sometimes giving me a cab ride! Once the wagons were all sorted, another loaded train would turn up in reception, the loco would cut off and proceed to shed, and it would start all over again. This used about half a dozen roads in the late 50s, but had about 20 in total, the rest being used to store withdrawn wagons. There were yards with sidings open at both ends, like Radyr or Cardiff Tidal, and these could extend over vast areas. Modelling even a representative few roads of such would need a lot of linear space, but of course you could adopt the cheat of modelling one end only and traffic can appear and disappear off stage direct from a fiddle yard; it would still need a lot of space though. Modelling a full hump yard operation, even with small humps like they had at Severn Tunnel Jc, would need a huge amount of space even in N, where the momentum issue would be exascerbated. 0 is best for this sort of thing, but we are looking at barn/aircraft hanger size layouts here! There were also 'combination' yards, some through roads and some single ended, like Stoke Gifford or Ebbw Jc, or Cadoxton. The very big yards introduce another problem, even in 2mm; the likes of Tinsley, Margam, Tyne and so on were hundreds of yards wide, and reaching across to retrieve derailed wagons (and trust me, you are going to have the odd derailment with this sort of operation, again in line with prototype practice!) is going to become an issue over more than 20 or so roads in N, and Margam sorted into 50 roads. Look at Margam on Google Earth; it's huge, and because of it's location in sand dunes the outline can be easily seen. A massive fan of reception sidings off the SWML to the east, the hump, the 50 sorting roads, flat shunting at the western end, and that's before you think about the up and down through roads, loco depot, and the other yards at the western end, some of which are still extant in connection with the TATA steelworks operation. Tinsley was bigger and on two levels. Modelled in full (which probably would need as many people to operate as the real yards did), one would need some sort of remote controlled overhead retrieval gantry crane system to rescue derailed wagons. I suppose it could be done, but I can see why nobody seems ever to have tried it; it would be an immense undertaking to build and even more so to operate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted April 16, 2021 Author Share Posted April 16, 2021 (edited) i winder I wonder if electro magnets might be the way to make such a shunting yard work? After all, we read so many tumes times about wagons being pulled towards uncoupling magnets due to the strength of the magnetic field and the free running nature of modern models with pin point axle ends and bearings etc. I'm no science expert and certainly don't have electronics or computing expertise, but I can imagine a system that is semi-autonomous to replicate the momentum/inertia etc of wagons moving by turning magnets on and off in order to "pull" or "push" wagons along. It wouldn't be simple to create or implement, but I expect that to get the best from it a level of computer control would be required if the operator was not to find themselves frantically pushing buttons to get it to work. If a "hump" yard, I'd imagine setting the points for the destination - the computer has sensor input to "know" where wagons are already on the siding, and another to inform it when a wagon is released. As soon as that happens, the computer relays a "ripple" through the magnets along the selected route, again with sensors to ensure that movement of the appropriate wagon. Different lengths of wagon are dealt with be by adjusting the rate that the magnets are energised, and that in turn is done automatically through sensors. The idea is to have the computer do what computers do best - crunch the data and respond appropriately! The operator gets to enjoy the process of route selection and shunting, and lets the computer deal with the backscene shenanigans to replicate a loose wagon being shunted. Meanwhile, I have succumbed to an eBay seller's "offer" - I was watching simply out of curiousity because the reasonable price asked by the seller was not - for once - shooting skywards and the offer made it attractive enough to respond! So, I am now the proud owner of two Big Big Trains V-skips! Not a shunting locomotive, but rolling stock! I have plans for minstrels, licourice allsorts etc in the skips, and laser cut flat wagons with "cradles" to support cold cans of beer etc, and get a loco kit from HGLW ... a bit of large scale fun in the garden because summer is coming! And if I get hold of a couple of BIG BIG TRAIN points, perhaps a siding or two for some shunting?! HOURS OF FUN! Edited April 24, 2021 by SteveyDee68 Typos - d*mn typos will be the depth of me! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted April 16, 2021 Share Posted April 16, 2021 7 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said: I have plans for minstrels Certainly be a first: a layout with accompanying sound-track by chaps in tights, strumming lutes. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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